00:00:00:02 - 00:00:05:01 Speaker 1 What advice would you give other guys starting out in in construction project management? 00:00:05:02 - 00:00:22:02 Speaker 2 I think if you don't have at least a little bit of passion for it, don't do it. There's too many things in this profession that if you don't really love it deep down, that it's not going to work out. 00:00:22:04 - 00:00:37:02 Speaker 2 You need to be constantly, constantly learning, constantly evolving, or you're just you're you're going to get stuck and you'll you'll have this one day that it's just horrible. I call it like the day of reckoning. You kind of just question, is this right for me? Is this what I should be doing? 00:00:37:02 - 00:00:48:03 Speaker 3 And you got to be a go getter. You got to realize that you don't know everything. Even if you do have a ton of experience, you don't know everything. Humility. Hungry? Honesty. Just those three things. If you can keep that in mind. 00:00:48:03 - 00:01:01:18 Speaker 2 And constantly evaluating where you're at, evaluating how you can get better, and just just kind of push it through, there's going to be some resiliency that you're going to have to build up. 00:01:01:20 - 00:01:20:19 Speaker 1 Good afternoon, friends, or good evening or good morning or whatever time it is when you're watching us or listening to us on the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I am your host, as always. Curtis Lawson. And joining me today are Matt Sneller, who I think this is like your third or fourth or fifth time or you're like number two on the rankings behind Tony. 00:01:20:19 - 00:01:22:06 Speaker 1 Right. As far as visitors go. 00:01:22:06 - 00:01:25:07 Speaker 3 I'll take it. I don't think I can surpassing this. Too hard to. 00:01:25:07 - 00:01:35:14 Speaker 1 Do. So. Matt Sneller with snow, our custom homes and for the first time, Cade slump. Cade is one of Matt's project managers, right? That's correct. Do you call him project manager? 00:01:35:15 - 00:01:36:22 Speaker 3 Spring project director? 00:01:36:23 - 00:01:37:20 Speaker 1 Project director. 00:01:37:23 - 00:01:38:12 Speaker 3 Something different. 00:01:38:13 - 00:01:47:24 Speaker 1 Okay, so the term project manager or superintendent? Project director, whatever. All these terms are kind of used. Yeah, kind of interchangeably. And residential. 00:01:48:00 - 00:01:56:23 Speaker 3 And residential. I think in commercial there's a little bit more delineation between superintendent and project manager, but in, in residential I they're pretty synonymous. 00:01:56:23 - 00:02:08:05 Speaker 1 Yeah I think I think in commercial project managers are usually guys we're sitting in the office kind of the more the paperwork side of it, more of the scheduling and then the the superintendents or the guys in the field. Right. And it kind of the terminology. 00:02:08:07 - 00:02:09:05 Speaker 3 Yep, I think so. 00:02:09:07 - 00:02:36:09 Speaker 1 So anyway, I thought it would be fun to do a show about, getting started in project management or maybe something like lessons learned in your first year or earlier in your career in project management, and kind of do an episode to kind of help people who are either wanting to get into this or just starting out, to help them to learn and grow, or for people who owned companies like you and I to, maybe have some things to think about to help your young staff, grow and, and develop. 00:02:36:09 - 00:02:52:04 Speaker 1 So we were at an event at your office earlier this year, maybe late last year. It was the EF one event that toner held at your office, and Cade and I were talking. I kind of floated it past him. He's like, oh, yeah, that'd be awesome. And then. And then you were gracious enough to to agree to kind of do this as well. 00:02:52:04 - 00:02:53:20 Speaker 1 So I'm excited. Thank you all. 00:02:53:21 - 00:02:54:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. Glad to be here man. 00:02:54:19 - 00:03:11:21 Speaker 1 So I just want to kind of start off with this little background, and kind of start by talking to Cade and just tell me kind of your story and, where you came from, how you got into doing what you're doing right now, you know, did you go to school for project management, you know, family history in that or what was your experience? 00:03:11:21 - 00:03:12:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:03:12:22 - 00:03:40:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. I've, I've always just kind of had an inherent interest in building things. From a young age. I've just I've really enjoyed seeing my work, visualized and in real life and high school was always working for buddy's dad's in construction, helping to sweep sites and demo walls and anything I could do to just get on a site and then, college came, and I went to school at University of Wyoming for construction management. 00:03:40:17 - 00:03:43:20 Speaker 2 Ended up actually dropping out of the program. 00:03:43:22 - 00:03:44:04 Speaker 3 Right. 00:03:44:04 - 00:03:45:02 Speaker 2 You did. I did. 00:03:45:06 - 00:03:46:08 Speaker 3 I did I didn't know that. 00:03:46:11 - 00:03:48:22 Speaker 2 I just faced that in the resume. 00:03:48:24 - 00:03:50:14 Speaker 4 Check the resume. Yeah. 00:03:50:16 - 00:03:54:15 Speaker 2 But it was, it was a fun year, but I was into. 00:03:54:18 - 00:03:55:13 Speaker 1 Two fun of a year. 00:03:55:13 - 00:04:16:01 Speaker 2 The two front of a year. Seven of my good buddies from high school all landed on the same dorm floor. It was, the less productive year of my life. And on top of that, the the curriculum for the construction management courses was vastly commercial. There was really no mention of residential, which makes sense on that scale. 00:04:16:01 - 00:04:40:18 Speaker 2 But, I've just I've never had a bone in my body that's interested in commercial work. I just think it's it tends to be more transactional than emotionally driven. And building something for a family to me is just it's much more impactful. So then I dropped out and figured, okay, well, maybe if I can't go this route, I can, try to get into a company and, and do some of the labor and, and just kind of work my way up from there. 00:04:40:18 - 00:05:00:05 Speaker 2 So cold called a bunch of remodeling companies in the Denver area, kind of gave him my story, told them I don't really know anything, but I want to learn. Finally got finally got one to stick, and, worked for him for a while. Did a lot of small remodels, bathrooms, kitchens. And again, I was I was a guy sweeping. 00:05:00:10 - 00:05:21:10 Speaker 2 I was, cutting the material for the, the main guys that the foreman's on site and just tried to be a sponge. Just just soak up everything I could. Then that kind of snowballed. I ended up flipping homes with my family, again in the Denver area. We ended up flipping four homes over the course of a year. 00:05:21:12 - 00:05:35:11 Speaker 2 And then we also, on top of that did one remodel for a client. So that was kind of my first experience actually working for a client. And working with family just gets a little, a little dicey. 00:05:35:13 - 00:05:36:07 Speaker 3 I never do that. 00:05:36:08 - 00:05:37:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:05:37:01 - 00:05:38:20 Speaker 3 Sorry. Jenny, if you're listening. 00:05:38:22 - 00:05:41:07 Speaker 4 That's my wife. So. 00:05:41:09 - 00:05:58:01 Speaker 2 At the time, my girlfriend wife now decided it was just kind of a good time in our lives to explore a little bit. Maybe get out of the state. Kind of go off on her own. And. Yeah, we we landed on Houston. I try to do as much due diligence as I could on some of the builders. 00:05:58:05 - 00:06:00:18 Speaker 2 Saw a sneller listing on. Indeed. 00:06:00:18 - 00:06:02:11 Speaker 1 And you still applied there, and. 00:06:02:11 - 00:06:02:22 Speaker 2 I applied. 00:06:03:03 - 00:06:04:21 Speaker 4 For. Yeah. 00:06:04:23 - 00:06:06:17 Speaker 3 Obviously didn't do that much. The builders. 00:06:06:19 - 00:06:08:22 Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. 00:06:08:24 - 00:06:14:18 Speaker 2 But yeah. And, for whatever reason, they hired me. So, the rest is history. 00:06:14:20 - 00:06:23:24 Speaker 1 So when you first started, you were kind of the guy who was, like, schlepping material and and, going to fetch the left, the left handed crescent wrench for the for the carpenter and the. 00:06:23:24 - 00:06:24:12 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. 00:06:24:12 - 00:06:26:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, all that kind of stuff. 00:06:26:06 - 00:06:27:11 Speaker 4 Yeah. 00:06:27:13 - 00:06:42:13 Speaker 1 What what, surprised you the most? You know what what what were your expectations kind of coming into this and what what was like the biggest revelation that you had? It was, like, a lot different than your childhood dream of being a project manager? 00:06:42:15 - 00:06:59:16 Speaker 2 Well, I think a lot of it when I was doing the flips and I was the one with the tool belt on, if, if I'm, if I'm hanging sheetrock and there's a framing issue, I can stop real quick, go grab my other tools, fix the issue, and proceed. And that's kind of the case throughout the whole project. 00:06:59:16 - 00:07:30:12 Speaker 2 If if a pipe's in the wrong location. All right. Well, I'm the one who did that work, so let's just cut open the wall and move that pipe and get on with it. That's that's not the case. It at this level, when you when you're you're strictly managing these projects, you you have to be just really diligent about the processes and understanding that these guys, they don't want to come back if their scope of work is completed, to get them back on site to fix some of these issues is, is it causes project delays and, can cause contention in some cases. 00:07:30:12 - 00:07:50:19 Speaker 2 And so that to me, I think was the biggest switching from your belt on, kind of guy to the project management side, it was just you. It's not as easy to correct some of these little mistakes that they used to be. Simple to to just real and get on with the project. So I'd say that that was a big one coming from that side of things. 00:07:50:21 - 00:07:56:11 Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know if I could trace back from my childhood dream to this. 00:07:56:11 - 00:07:57:18 Speaker 4 00:07:57:20 - 00:07:59:10 Speaker 1 It's not as glamorous as you thought it. 00:07:59:10 - 00:08:01:01 Speaker 4 Would be at times. 00:08:01:05 - 00:08:25:09 Speaker 2 At times. I still I still think that it's it it still provides me that, like, I guess, satisfaction with the job that I thought it always would like. Still being able to just see the work that that is still the case like that hasn't changed. And, it's still is. It's you get to go home and, and, you know, show people photos of these projects you're working on. 00:08:25:09 - 00:08:46:16 Speaker 2 And, you know, you always hear the story driving by the house. And, oh, I worked on that house. I worked on that house. But it is cool. I mean, because it's it's something that's going to be standing for a really long time. Odds are there's going to be multiple people using that space, multiple families, across the lifetime of that project and you just affect a lot of people in the place that they spend the most of their time. 00:08:46:20 - 00:08:47:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:08:47:00 - 00:09:12:09 Speaker 1 So yeah, I, I love the, the sense of satisfaction that you get from, from, you know, on a remodel, let's say from, from seeing it go from one state to another, right. Or new construction, you know, going from the either the, the empty lot or the teardown to the final product. And, and what you said about, you know, kind of multiple generations or multiple not generations, but kind of sets of families inhabiting that space over the house's lifetime. 00:09:12:11 - 00:09:31:20 Speaker 1 I mean, I've had people they're the third owner of the house since we did it, and they'll call me and be like, hey, I know that you built this house. We want to have something done to it. And by the way, we love this house. It's awesome. That's like one of the greatest feelings is having people, you know, bring that up in and compliment you and tell you how much they they love something that you did 15 years ago. 00:09:31:20 - 00:09:32:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:09:32:09 - 00:09:33:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's awesome man. 00:09:33:15 - 00:09:47:12 Speaker 1 It's a great sense of satisfaction. There's there's not I thought there's not that many jobs out there where you can get that sense of satisfaction. You know, my, my, my wife who works in the chemical engineering world and she doesn't have that sense of satisfaction. You know. 00:09:47:14 - 00:10:13:09 Speaker 3 There's so many or there's so few, jobs left that you are you're dealing with the direct end user. It's like, you know, we're we're dealing with the clients that are going to live in this house right now. And like you said, other families in the future. But it's like to have that satisfaction of getting to improve their life and give them a space that their family literally spends the majority of their time. 00:10:13:09 - 00:10:31:14 Speaker 3 It's it's awesome minutes. Yeah. Like you said, most most industries don't get that at teachers or maybe one of the other only other ones that are, you know, kind of that direct user. But most, most people just yeah, they're working for a corporation and don't really get to know how their day to day job affects another person. 00:10:31:14 - 00:10:33:09 Speaker 3 But we get to see that every single day. 00:10:33:11 - 00:10:40:13 Speaker 1 And I think it's one of the few jobs out there that won't be replaced by some sort of AI. Oh I mean there's. 00:10:40:13 - 00:10:43:02 Speaker 3 Always like robots will be building our houses in 100. 00:10:43:02 - 00:11:00:00 Speaker 1 Years. I mean, there's always some level of automation that's going to happen, right? I mean look at the like the, the 3D printed houses, stuff like that. But there still has to be somebody who's, you know, on the design side to start with the scheduling kind of the management of it, kind of making it all all come together. 00:11:00:00 - 00:11:12:18 Speaker 1 I mean, AI is not my take. Some part of that robots make might take some part of that, but it's not going to be a no and no if people involved type scenario, I don't think. Yeah. Not not all the time that's for sure. 00:11:12:18 - 00:11:16:02 Speaker 3 Exactly. Not a problem kids. Problem. 00:11:16:04 - 00:11:23:14 Speaker 1 And so you're like Star Wars, Star Trek, you know. You know, time frame when you know, things just just happen, right. Materialize. 00:11:23:16 - 00:11:24:22 Speaker 2 Then you got to build the ships. 00:11:24:24 - 00:11:41:17 Speaker 1 Think about when you first started, what was kind of the the biggest daunting task or the biggest thing where you're like, oh boy, I've got to figure this out. You know, I it's basically that moment where you're like, I've got to put my big boy pants on for the first time and do this job, you know, was there a moment like that? 00:11:41:17 - 00:12:05:14 Speaker 2 And I don't know if there was like one defining moment, at that, the projects that I started out on were kind of the smaller things. There was, some, a house nearby that had some hurricane damage that we went in. It did just some kind of remediation work. And so, you know, Matt and Jenny were good about kind of starting small with things in kind of inch in the way up. 00:12:05:16 - 00:12:17:01 Speaker 2 I think my first new build that I did was, a dentist office, actually, in the same, complex as our office is in. So, you know, I'm building this thing and they're all watching from the window. 00:12:17:03 - 00:12:17:21 Speaker 4 00:12:17:23 - 00:12:18:16 Speaker 3 No pressure. 00:12:18:18 - 00:12:43:05 Speaker 2 But that I think that was the first, like, oh, wow. Like, this is there's so much more going on here than I thought. That was one of the first projects that it wasn't just like interior designer homeowner trade communications, it was architect, structural geotech, all of these other people that needed to be aware of what's going on, needed information for them. 00:12:43:05 - 00:13:06:03 Speaker 2 I needed information from them to implement onto the site. And that was kind of the first like for I think it was like a around a year build time, and first like major project. I would say that that, that I took on in that it was it was definitely an awakening, to kind of see, okay, this is this is what this really is all about here. 00:13:06:03 - 00:13:25:23 Speaker 2 And, yeah, I would say that project and we at the time, our senior m was, was good about kind of talking through that and having our office right across the street. Right. If I had an issue, I'd just kind of walk over and talk it through. And Matt sat in on a lot of those those meetings throughout that project, just checking in, making sure things were going well. 00:13:25:23 - 00:13:33:20 Speaker 2 So that that project, I think, made me realize kind of what the full scope of this job is. 00:13:33:22 - 00:13:44:16 Speaker 1 So it's really just kind of understanding, like all the different players that you have to coordinate as part of the job. Right? It's not it's not just you're dealing with the subs, but it's the whole it's it's kind of managing the whole team. 00:13:44:16 - 00:14:04:21 Speaker 2 Right, right, right. And that was like I said, my first new build. So really having the foresight throughout the project of, of when we're framing, I'm thinking about trim like I, we need to be thinking about these things way down the line, at this point in the project to make sure when we get to that point, we don't have issues that we need to go in and rectify. 00:14:04:23 - 00:14:15:12 Speaker 2 And so that was the first one that was really just, to me, that showed me what a, what a project manager supposed to be was like that, that type of project. 00:14:15:12 - 00:14:22:11 Speaker 1 So it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, it's hard to bring the trades back to fix something once it's already been done. 00:14:22:11 - 00:14:24:15 Speaker 2 So it's and then explain it to the client. 00:14:24:15 - 00:14:40:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's, it's understanding the planning and having the forethought to think through all the steps that have to happen to get you from point A to point B, you know, to make sure every pipe, every wire, every duct is in the right place so it doesn't conflict with something else. It's not just slap it in there and get it done. 00:14:40:05 - 00:14:41:18 Speaker 2 Right? Right, right. 00:14:41:20 - 00:14:50:07 Speaker 1 Matt, kind of to kind of ask you some of the same questions if you can think all the way back to the dawn of time to when, you know, you and I started doing. 00:14:50:10 - 00:14:52:19 Speaker 3 Chores around the earth and we started building houses. 00:14:52:19 - 00:14:56:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. When you had to fight off the T-Rex to. 00:14:56:09 - 00:14:56:22 Speaker 4 Have to. 00:14:57:00 - 00:15:03:06 Speaker 3 Fight off the T-Rex. But we the our communication was Nextel, radios. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. That noise. Yeah. 00:15:03:08 - 00:15:04:04 Speaker 4 Oh, yeah. 00:15:04:06 - 00:15:17:04 Speaker 1 So thinking back to when you first started, do you think things are different now than they were back then? I mean, obviously technology has changed some things, but do you feel like you kind of had some of the same challenges back when you first got started? 00:15:17:04 - 00:15:39:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely similarities. I think a lot of things have changed. And the the biggest thing I think is the prevalence of cast, YouTube videos. I think it Matt Risinger and a lot of the work that he's done in the videos that he has, where you can like when I first started building, all I knew was I didn't I didn't have a construction management degree. 00:15:39:09 - 00:16:05:00 Speaker 3 And so it's really what I had learned just on the job site. And Cade came in having he knew who Matt Risinger was and he where there's other podcasts and videos, YouTube channels that he watched and kept up with him. So he had a little bit of that knowledge, if not job site experience, at least had some knowledge of like, hey, this is how a house should be built, or here's what a typical or good wall assembly looks like. 00:16:05:00 - 00:16:20:11 Speaker 3 Whereas when I started, it was really just, I mean, what the other guys in the trailer jobsite trailer with me, what they taught me from a, you know, from day one and walk in jobs and then learning from them, learning from the subs so that that part of it is still there and there's still a lot of learning that happens with that. 00:16:20:11 - 00:16:30:10 Speaker 3 But, I think it's possible for guys that even don't have any experience to come in and still have a base level of knowledge that maybe we didn't used to have. 00:16:30:10 - 00:16:32:00 Speaker 4 Yeah. So. 00:16:32:02 - 00:16:50:04 Speaker 1 Do you think that. Yeah. And I experience that too. It's kind of like learning from the old guys. You kind of learn. Well, this is the way we've always done it, and this is the way it's always been done. And, you know, don't listen to that new crap. This is how you do it, right? And, and I, I honestly like 15 plus years ago I was totally on board with that. 00:16:50:04 - 00:17:10:15 Speaker 1 Like when I heard and this was kind of pre YouTube pre you know Matt doing all his stuff on, on, on YouTube. When I heard of all the, you know, spray foam insulation and type building envelopes or whatever, my first response was what I had already heard from the guys that I was working with, which was like, that's a bunch of crap. 00:17:10:15 - 00:17:19:00 Speaker 1 Don't listen to that. This is the way it's always been done. If it worked in the 1950s, it's going to work now. And so, I mean, I appreciate it, you know, but that same attitude. 00:17:19:03 - 00:17:19:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:17:19:14 - 00:17:38:20 Speaker 1 And but yeah, you're right. It's like now, I think a lot of young guys are watching the stuff on YouTube, you know, Instagram, whatever. And they're seeing these cool new products like I the right way to do stuff and they're latching on to that. And that's a, it's a huge benefit. It's a huge tool that you guys have now that we didn't have. 00:17:38:24 - 00:18:03:15 Speaker 3 No I agree and I think just in general our society is getting to a point both in this industry but even just in schools and education. But we're we're going away a little bit from like the generational knowledge. And it's more to I mean, all the kids these days are they're grown up with an iPad in their lap, and that's they're looking at technology to learn how to do things before they get somebody that's already done it and ask them how to do it. 00:18:03:15 - 00:18:21:05 Speaker 3 And so yeah, we got to be aware of it. And and we've always been of the mindset that, I mean, thankfully I worked with guys who were really experienced, but I didn't really work with the kind of, you know, curmudgeon old guy that's like, oh, we've been doing it this way for 50 years. 00:18:21:05 - 00:18:22:01 Speaker 1 That's how I work with it. 00:18:22:02 - 00:18:23:17 Speaker 4 Exactly. 00:18:23:19 - 00:18:39:00 Speaker 3 We have some of those as subcontractors. But, in terms of project managers and superintendents that I worked around, I didn't have a lot of that. And so thankfully, it was a little bit easier to embrace newer technologies and, and ways of doing things from kind of from the beginning. 00:18:39:00 - 00:19:00:00 Speaker 1 So yeah. Yeah, I mean, for, for me, I didn't change my mentality until I started to see things. I started to actually see the problems that doing things like that were causing. And I started to kind of question what these guys were saying. I'm like, Mickey, okay, you're good. You've been doing it that way for 20 years, but yet I'm seeing all these little problems creep up. 00:19:00:00 - 00:19:03:02 Speaker 1 Maybe you should, you know, change your change your strategy here. 00:19:03:05 - 00:19:03:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:19:03:15 - 00:19:26:14 Speaker 1 And embrace some of this stuff. So, Yeah, I mean, the it also aside from, aside from that, just the advent of project management technology I think has really made a big difference, too. I mean, like having tools like, I don't know if you all use which software you all, but whether it's builder trend code construct, we just switch to one call ratio, whatever software system that you're using. 00:19:26:16 - 00:19:31:13 Speaker 1 You know, back, back then I had the yellow notepad and. Yeah. And the day planner. 00:19:31:15 - 00:19:31:20 Speaker 3 Yep. 00:19:31:24 - 00:19:32:05 Speaker 4 Yeah. 00:19:32:07 - 00:19:33:22 Speaker 1 The leather bound planner. 00:19:33:24 - 00:19:56:22 Speaker 3 And for me, it like, I started as a, with the production builder, and it was faxing your orders to the office and call the guys on the Nextel radio. And. Yeah, it was a yellow pad of paper, and literally printed calendars that you would keep track of all your schedules on. And nowadays, everything's in a beautiful app on your phone, and things automatically, notify subs and clients and all of that. 00:19:56:22 - 00:19:58:04 Speaker 3 So it's awesome. 00:19:58:06 - 00:20:12:18 Speaker 1 I will say that for the younger guys, have a much easier time kind of latching on to it to just just naturally using that. My, my older guys still, still kind of struggle. They gotta put the put the readers down on their nose and hold the phone back here and kind of pick out it a little bit. 00:20:12:18 - 00:20:14:08 Speaker 4 But yeah. 00:20:14:10 - 00:20:32:09 Speaker 1 But yeah, you know, we, we've kind of forcibly transitioned everyone to doing that, but it's it's been a lot easier for the for the young guys for sure. What do you look for when you're hiring? It's kind of a shift a little bit. But what do you what do you look for when you're hiring a project management superintendent? 00:20:32:09 - 00:20:49:11 Speaker 1 Project director? You know, obviously Cade came in with with not a whole lot of experience. And I'm sure, like me, when you post a job, you get kind of a wide range of resumes and experience. But what was it about Cade that that kind of made you want to hire him? Let's, let's, let's build up a little bit. 00:20:49:11 - 00:20:54:22 Speaker 1 Right. But what do you look for and what, what what what what keyed you in on on him. 00:20:54:24 - 00:21:15:03 Speaker 3 So, you know, honestly, my wife is the first line of defense and she, is the one that first realized or notice that there's something special about Cade. I think for us, experience is is important. We've we've tried to go the route of hiring somebody that's never done anything in a construction before at all. And that was rushed from a learning curve perspective. 00:21:15:03 - 00:21:33:22 Speaker 3 But even just from, like, they weren't used to honestly, they weren't used to hard work. They weren't used to like being outside in the heat frequently. And, you know, you might have to work till 8 or 9:00 one night because you've got, the back wall of a house. It's wide open, and you need to make sure the door guys stay there until the finish, that the house is closed up the end of the night, like, 00:21:33:24 - 00:21:52:15 Speaker 3 And so Cade did have a little bit of that experience. And so we've kind of come to the point where we realize there's got to be a little bit of experience. It may not be that there's 50 years or 20 years of, of, construction management experience, but, having somebody that at least has a base level of, remodeling or new home construction. 00:21:52:15 - 00:22:07:17 Speaker 3 So I think besides that, what's more important for us is character attitude. I think we really look for people that are humble and hungry. And what I mean by hungry is not that they showed up to an interview, you know, hoping for a five course meal. 00:22:07:17 - 00:22:08:08 Speaker 2 We're all well-fed. 00:22:08:08 - 00:22:10:00 Speaker 4 Exactly. 00:22:10:02 - 00:22:32:18 Speaker 3 But, that they are go getters and that they, they don't just sit around waiting for, things to be handed to them or solutions to be handed to them. We we often talk about being relentless problem solvers. And I want people that have that attitude. And so that's very important to us. And then the humility is a huge part of it, too. 00:22:32:20 - 00:22:57:07 Speaker 3 We've never been a, you screw up, we're going to fire you or scream at you for screwing up. If you screw up once, we're gonna have a discussion about it. What happened? Why did it happen? Did you learn your lesson? It keeps growing up in the same thing over and over again. We might have a problem, but it's that people that are willing to take that criticism and take the correction humbly and not just be like, well, it's not my fault, it's the sub that did it wrong. 00:22:57:07 - 00:23:17:11 Speaker 3 Well, technically, yes, but you're the one that's managing this. And so it's your responsibility to make sure that it was done right. So kids always had those, those qualities from the beginning and still does, which is one of many things that we love about them. But, yeah, those are probably the two biggest ones I would say are the humility and the the hunger that I. 00:23:17:13 - 00:23:40:21 Speaker 1 I think builders who have that attitude with their employees kind of the grace of, of, you know, let's get past that, that mistake, let's talk about it, let's learn from it and move on. I think people built builders. Company owners who have that attitude also tend to act that way themselves when dealing with clients. So I'm very similar in that way, or at least I like to think so. 00:23:40:23 - 00:23:57:09 Speaker 1 I believe in, you know, we're not perfect or we're going to make mistakes. We're going to screw up every job. Every job that we do. Every house that we build is a learning experience. It's being honest with the clients, too, and saying, hey, we made a mistake. We're going to fix it. We're going to work together to make sure this doesn't happen again. 00:23:57:11 - 00:24:09:22 Speaker 1 But just showing the clients also that we're human, too. I think companies have better client relationships who interact that way with their employees and with their clients. It's it's Emily. 00:24:09:22 - 00:24:35:17 Speaker 3 Ryan. Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point. I think, the clients see us interact with each other that way. They see us interact with our subs that way. And you're right, it it, I think, naturally makes it easier for them to act that way with us. And we we often tell clients when, when we do our, our kind of project kickoff pre-construction meeting that, hey, there's going to be some things that go wrong like it, it absolutely guarantee I don't know what it will be on your project, but something will go wrong. 00:24:35:23 - 00:24:54:19 Speaker 3 And all we ask is that you be patient with us and you know, if you're the first one that sees it, if it's walking in at 8:00 at night and your living room ceiling is caving in because somebody left the water line running, that shouldn't have just be. You may not be calm, but at least give us a been for the doubt and like let us. 00:24:54:21 - 00:24:55:04 Speaker 1 Fix. 00:24:55:04 - 00:25:03:19 Speaker 3 It. Let us fix it. Don't just freak out and you know, fire us because you don't know what you're doing. It just. Yeah, it the things happen a lot. 00:25:03:19 - 00:25:24:04 Speaker 1 It's a big difference to between, being honest about your mistake and taking ownership and fixing it and making excuses, trying to hide it, trying to cover it up, passing the buck on the subcontractor, whatever. It's it's giving your your clients the kind of the comfort of knowing, hey, we've got this. We're going to fix this. If something happens, we're going to fix it. 00:25:24:04 - 00:25:24:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:25:24:17 - 00:25:25:09 Speaker 1 You know. 00:25:25:11 - 00:25:42:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. And and the same goes with I feel like with, with our, with my guys, with the project directors is, hey, if you mess something up, don't try to hide it like that. If we're if you want to see me get really upset, that's when I get upset is when you're trying to hide something. But if you just be honest with me and be like, hey, I forgot to do this. 00:25:42:03 - 00:25:52:12 Speaker 3 I know you told me to do this. We forgot to do it before you shoot right now, we got to open up the sheetrock and fix it or whatever. Whatever the issue is, just be honest about it. We all make mistakes. And don't. Don't try to hide it. 00:25:52:14 - 00:26:14:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's tapping that as our we're kind of getting off track here of young project managers. But I like this line of discussion. It's also acting the same way with your subcontractors too. It's like I've, I've been around plenty of builders who just do nothing but hammer, hammer, hammer on their subcontractors. It's like you make a mistake, you eat it tight, tight mentality. 00:26:14:10 - 00:26:31:12 Speaker 1 Right. And I think we also have to deal with our subs the same way. It's like they're human. They're going to make a mistake, you know, and knowing their maybe sometimes knowing their financial situation or knowing how much kind of they have in the job to, to to eat stuff like that. I don't always make them eat all of every mistake. 00:26:31:12 - 00:26:52:12 Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not going to eat it all for sure. Exactly. Right. Let's it's having that discussion with the sub and saying, hey, I understand that was a it's a honest mistake. Let's split that or you cover the labor all by the materials or vice versa. Right. It's, it's it's having the same attitude with the project staff, the, the, the, the customers and the subs. 00:26:52:12 - 00:26:57:13 Speaker 1 Right. It's just kind of that, that general way of operating that I think will make you successful. 00:26:57:15 - 00:27:20:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, and it's we're in such a weird position as, as builders and remodelers that we, we don't just have one customer like we have our client that is one customer. But and then I feel like our subcontractors and trade partners are another customer, are architects and interior designers that we work with or another customer. And so it's like you're trying to keep everybody happy. 00:27:20:01 - 00:27:39:02 Speaker 3 And that that opportunity for mistakes is on all those levels. And so you're absolutely right. And that and then the same goes with our our architect partners. Like they might draw something wrong. They do make mistakes every now and then and they might draw something wrong. And we built it exactly our plans. And it's against code or didn't look right or whatever. 00:27:39:04 - 00:27:54:02 Speaker 3 It we're, we're pretty slow to just rip into them and say, this is your fault. You need to pay for it. It's a this doesn't look right. Can you come look at this? And then it's like, oh wow. Yeah, that's not right. And then let's figure out a way to to fix it where it's okay for both of us. 00:27:54:02 - 00:28:04:20 Speaker 3 I don't expect you to, you know, just bend over and take it. But I also expect you to take a little ownership of. Hey, yeah, I drew this wrong. Let's figure out the best way to fix it. So. 00:28:04:20 - 00:28:27:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Exactly. All right. So kind of getting back on track, you know, we talked about kind of the curmudgeon way of doing things, you know, something I experienced or I've observed a lot rather is, when you've got a younger project manager coming into a situation and you've got like some older established crews, it's kind of dealing with the wariness that's there, from the curmudgeon side of things. 00:28:27:21 - 00:28:47:10 Speaker 1 Like, you know, this young whippersnapper is going to come in here and, you know, he can't be the boss of me. He did not have ties and shoelaces. You know, how does it how does a new young project director kind of gain the trust and, the respect of, of, of the old curmudgeon? 00:28:47:12 - 00:29:12:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. Contingent. I think the very first thing is respecting them, and making sure that they understand that, you know, you are the young guy. You're you're the fresh guy. And I'm not hiding behind that. I'm not pretending I'm not. But that is going to that's going to come with some questions on my end. And I might ask you to do something that you're like, hey, we're at we're not we're nowhere near ready for that phase. 00:29:12:24 - 00:29:33:03 Speaker 2 Why are you sending me to the site? You know, plenty of interactions like that, but I think it just takes time. I think it takes going through multiple projects and and showing these guys that, you know, you're making progress every time. And you're getting better at sending them when the full scope of work is ready for them to complete and making sure that their materials are on site where they need it. 00:29:33:03 - 00:29:58:02 Speaker 2 And it's just constantly improving that until you kind of get to the point where they understand, okay, he's he's at a point now where he understands what he's doing. I know that when he calls me out to site, it's going to be ready. Honestly, most of our subconscious, we have a few, of course everyone does. But we I think Matt kind of looks in our subcontractors the same kind of thing that he looks for in his project managers. 00:29:58:04 - 00:30:18:21 Speaker 2 And so that has our sub bases. They're easy people to get Ahold of. They're easy people to talk to. They're not that kind of typical aggressive personality type. And again, you might get a crew or two that got a few guys like that on it. But, I would say I was there was never a case with any of our subs that, I just felt completely disrespected. 00:30:18:21 - 00:30:27:20 Speaker 2 And, that fortunately, I never really had to go through that. But, yeah, I think just I think it just takes time with, with a lot of those guys. 00:30:27:22 - 00:30:29:00 Speaker 1 What's your take on that same. 00:30:29:02 - 00:30:44:09 Speaker 3 I mean, I think again, it goes to the humility. Like, you just have to admit that you don't know, and tell them, they, they obviously can see your age and they, guys that have been doing it a while know pretty quick if you know what you're doing or not. And they can kind of call BS on it. 00:30:44:09 - 00:30:45:16 Speaker 3 And so I think you can. 00:30:45:16 - 00:30:49:06 Speaker 1 Kind of tell by the way people talk about things, whether or not they know they. 00:30:49:08 - 00:31:07:20 Speaker 3 Exist in other stuff. Yeah. And I think just not not taking yourself too, too seriously to where like, you're just going to get so upset or down on yourself for, for not knowing what something's called or when when your tower guy asks for something, you're like, I have no clue what he's asking for. You just have to be honest about, okay, what do you mean by that? 00:31:07:21 - 00:31:31:17 Speaker 3 I'm not familiar with that term or I thought, this is what comes next, but you're telling me that that's not true. And, you know, I think you have to. You have to trust your subs, but you also have to be willing to call, you know, for K to call me or we've got a lead project director that's kind of over them that he can call Zach and be like, hey, you know, the tile setters telling me this, it's not the way we typically do things. 00:31:31:17 - 00:31:43:18 Speaker 3 Is that normal, or is that okay if we do it that way? And just again, it's the it's the humility to call and and ask somebody else and not just, assume that, you know, everything. 00:31:43:22 - 00:32:04:02 Speaker 1 I like the, yeah. And even for me, as someone who's been doing this a long time, if there's if there's something that I don't know how to do that it's a new, new thing, something it's like out of my wheelhouse. I'll go to the the guy doing the work who knows what he's doing and just just say, hey, I'm it. 00:32:04:02 - 00:32:28:08 Speaker 1 Just honestly, I'm new at this. Let's talk about it. You tell me the best way for this thing to flow. You tell me how you like to do it, and then let's make that kind of fit within the project schedule. As long as as long as we're getting the same result. It's letting them know that you trust their experience and their expertise, and that you're not going to try to come in and steamroll it and say, I'm the project manager, you're going to do it my way. 00:32:28:08 - 00:32:31:10 Speaker 1 You know, it's like, let's, let's work collaboratively on this, right? 00:32:31:11 - 00:33:08:13 Speaker 3 Yeah. No, absolutely. I think even, and actually, Cade did something that's fairly new for us as a company. He just started a big new build project, out, for us and probably about six, four months ago, it started. And so he was like, hey, before we actually break ground, I really want to sit down with key subs and, like, have, like a pre-construction meeting with them where I get, like a group of subs, like all the mechanical subs together or the, the site guy, the foundation guy, and like, let's have a just sit in the office for an hour and kind of see what questions they have. 00:33:08:13 - 00:33:24:03 Speaker 3 I can go over my expectations for how the project's going to go. I was like, yeah, that's great. And what's cool about that is that it it sets the expectations upfront. But what I also liked about it was there was we asked questions in that meeting, and it was some of the subs had ways of doing things that we hadn't done before. 00:33:24:03 - 00:33:52:02 Speaker 3 And it was like, oh, that's really cool. And so it I think one of the first meetings is when we realize that and so all the subsequent meetings, we would just ask them, hey, is there anything that other builders are doing? Either a different technique, a different product that you think is really cool or is better that you think we should be using, and almost all of them have at least something, and it, it will end up making for a better, a better build and a better overall product for our client, which is awesome. 00:33:52:06 - 00:33:52:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:33:52:11 - 00:34:00:15 Speaker 1 And and it makes them feel like they're heard and part of the process and kind of kind of get some buy in from them as well for sure. 00:34:00:20 - 00:34:01:06 Speaker 3 Okay. 00:34:01:08 - 00:34:20:21 Speaker 1 What about like in office relations. So again, kind of the same you would experience, you know, I, I would assume like like like like me and a lot of companies, you get kind of a group of people that have been there for a while. And, and doing things a certain way. How does, how does somebody new and green come in and kind of earn the respect of the, of the office of the team in the office? 00:34:20:21 - 00:34:22:19 Speaker 2 Shut up and listen in meetings? 00:34:22:23 - 00:34:23:23 Speaker 4 00:34:24:00 - 00:34:53:09 Speaker 2 Which is not necessarily my strongest suit, but, I think just those, those first, like, foundational months where you're, you're kind of learning, everybody's still, learning the processes and just understanding expectations and all that. It's just super critical to just be an absolute sponge, to everything. And they don't need your opinion yet. And, so I think that in same way with the subs, I mean, I don't think you necessarily need to treated any differently. 00:34:53:11 - 00:35:22:11 Speaker 2 If you're working with, another PM that's got 15 years on yet, that's, that is a resource. They're at the same company as you. We all have the same mission, the same goal. And so use them as a resource. And I think it's easier than people think. If if you just take the humility aspect of it and know, know your place, especially in those, those first couple of years, like you're just forming everything still. 00:35:22:11 - 00:35:25:00 Speaker 2 And so yeah, yeah. 00:35:25:04 - 00:35:43:08 Speaker 1 And there's there's always something to be said about just keeping your mouth shut and letting your actions speak for you. It's like, you know, earn their respect by putting your head down, getting the job done and letting them see, oh, wow. Okay. It's really kicking butt on this. You know, like, maybe I could learn something from watching something he's doing right? 00:35:43:08 - 00:36:03:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. For sure. Well, and not being the the person that comes in, that just always has the better idea, you know, like, well, why aren't we doing it this way? Like, you can say that eventually, once you've earned my our attention and our respect, to be able to to offer that advice. But like, if you're the brand new guy, don't come in and tell us all the things we're doing wrong. 00:36:03:23 - 00:36:20:22 Speaker 3 Like, and K didn't do it. I'm not saying he did. But I will say I've seen those guys. We've had those guys in interviews before where like, you know, my wife Jenny is the one that can do the initial interview and that'll go pretty well. And so we'll bring that person in and they'll sit down with me, and then we'll maybe introduce them to 2 or 3 of the guys and let them kind of chat. 00:36:20:22 - 00:36:35:21 Speaker 3 And we're like, they spent that entire time talking about either where they're working now and how everything's screwed up, and they have all these amazing ideas of how to fix everything, or they're telling us the things we're doing wrong. You're like, what in the world? I don't want you working for me like that. 00:36:35:23 - 00:36:36:13 Speaker 4 This is only. 00:36:36:13 - 00:36:37:08 Speaker 3 Going to get worse. 00:36:37:11 - 00:36:44:16 Speaker 1 I've had guys come in and say, well, why aren't you using that product? Or why aren't you using that software? Right? You know, I'm like, dude, yeah, let's not worry. 00:36:44:18 - 00:36:45:15 Speaker 4 For. 00:36:45:17 - 00:36:46:16 Speaker 1 This is not winning my heart. 00:36:46:17 - 00:36:47:23 Speaker 4 Exactly. Yeah. 00:36:48:00 - 00:37:01:08 Speaker 3 Again, eventually you can get to the place where you can suggest those things, and I'm all for that and I'm all for listening. But you need to earn my respect first. And let me realize that you actually know what you're talking about in regards to that, before you just start mouthing off about it. 00:37:01:08 - 00:37:26:05 Speaker 1 So so let's talk about, growth, development, training, all that kind of stuff. So, what, since you started, what what skills have you found the most crucial to to work on, to develop? I mean, we kind of talked about the foresight and kind of the planning side of things. Any other any other skills other than that, that you think or that you've thought, hey, I really need to focus on, on on developing that. 00:37:26:07 - 00:37:49:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. Organization and communication. Which maybe touches a bit on the, the planning, but I think that when there were a lot of times, early on where I'd go in, I'd walk a site and I'll sit and chat with the homeowner, talk about the progress. They'll give me a couple action items, and I storm in here and walk out and go to the next slide, and then those are gone. 00:37:49:14 - 00:38:15:00 Speaker 2 And, a week later, they're reaching out. Hey, do we have any progress on this? And I still haven't done anything on that, that action item. So just getting better about notating specific things, organizing meetings with our client where it it almost creates that environment for me. Like instead of just a bunch of random one off meetings, let's set a schedule every week. 00:38:15:00 - 00:38:29:18 Speaker 2 At the same time we meet, we walk the site. I will get there 20 minutes early, set up all my stuff, make sure I can take all the notes I need to take. And so I think, if you go back and look at my annual reviews those first couple years, the, the organization and. 00:38:29:18 - 00:38:34:00 Speaker 1 Communications actually bring me, let's review those here on a live on here. 00:38:34:02 - 00:38:36:19 Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:36:21 - 00:38:57:14 Speaker 2 And then the communication route is just making sure on those action items that, that every party that's involved is aware. And again, that's not just if the homeowner wants to make a change to the brick. It's not just informing our Mason, but that's informing our selection coordinator, our vendor, the designer on the project that they want to make this change. 00:38:57:14 - 00:39:17:18 Speaker 2 There's there's just so you can overcommunicate for the most part, there's some people that will just starting knowing your emails, but, and then learning communication. You know, I don't talk to my plumber the same way I talked to one of our clients, or the same way I talk to the architect. There are different communication avenues that different people grasp on to more. 00:39:17:18 - 00:39:38:15 Speaker 2 And you just throughout the course of a project, you learn that, and, you know, maybe they're not as receptive to text messages as they are to emails. Maybe they never get back to me on email, but they're always calling me. So, you know, a phone call is the best way to get an answer. So just communication or organization overall, I think is something I'm still working on today. 00:39:38:17 - 00:39:42:12 Speaker 2 But that I would say was kind of the biggest hurdle in the beginning. 00:39:42:12 - 00:40:04:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, I, I think that's something that we, we all have to continuously work on, you know, even even being around for a long time. We always have to learn the communication styles of the people that we're dealing with and learn how to how to get the most out of that, but just constantly. Yeah. Yep. But the documentation side too, I mean, I, I am a I am not a hyper organized person myself. 00:40:05:00 - 00:40:28:07 Speaker 1 And so I have to like really make a conscious effort to, to document things and take notes and, you know, that that's one way that the software systems are great, you know, whether it's again, whether it's builder, churn co construct ratio, whatever you're using, but using that technology to, you know, to take meeting notes, to meet action items, to do things like that. 00:40:28:09 - 00:40:39:00 Speaker 1 That's a skill that takes that takes some developing. And then I think I have observed a lot of newer people not immediately latching on to, yeah, they're like, oh, I got this. I it's all up here, right? 00:40:39:02 - 00:41:03:00 Speaker 3 I would say if it that is probably the most common conversation that I have with project directors over any, any that we've ever hired. And all the ones that work for me today is just it's that idea of, hey, anytime you're walking a job site, you either have or you're stellar notebook that you're taking notes in, or you have your phone out that you're taking notes in below trend or sending yourself an email. 00:41:03:00 - 00:41:25:05 Speaker 3 But there's always like, there's there's too much for one. There's too much going on. Even just in one project. And then you multiply that over caring two, 3 or 4 projects and you get you're in the middle of, you know, it's all fresh in your mind, like Cade said. And then you get a phone call from the next from a different client, and you got to go put out a fire over at that project. 00:41:25:05 - 00:41:46:01 Speaker 3 And so you totally forget the 4 or 5 action items that you had the last project. And so if it's written down to where you can always go back either and, and I've always been big on, I'm not going to force you to do it my way. I had the way that really worked well for me. You don't have to do it that way, but you have to have a way that works for you to where you're checking it on a regular basis. 00:41:46:01 - 00:42:03:20 Speaker 3 You're looking back through it and making sure, oh, I forgot about that. I never or I called that guy and I never heard back from him. I need to follow back up with him again, because we all know in this industry it's hardly ever one phone call or one email that gets the job done. It's usually 2 or 3, or it's an email, a phone call and a text message before you actually hear back. 00:42:03:20 - 00:42:05:03 Speaker 3 So yeah, just. 00:42:05:05 - 00:42:26:10 Speaker 1 And also just documenting what happened in a meeting too. I had this conversation with my project management staff a lot where it's like, if you have a site meeting and the customer talks about all this stuff, don't just write down your action. I like have kind of like a meeting summary that, you know, you put in. I mean, I like to use it as a way to prevent future conflicts too as well. 00:42:26:10 - 00:42:51:24 Speaker 1 So as soon as the meeting is over, put it in our software or send email or whatever, but just say, hey, thanks for the meeting today. Here's just in summary. Here's what we talked about. You know, you want to change this. This. You know, I'm waiting for selection on this. This is the schedule for the upcoming week or whatever, but just put it in a, in a document that you send to them that way they can't come back to you six months later and say, you never told me that. 00:42:51:24 - 00:42:55:22 Speaker 1 I'm like, actually, I did see here on September 28th, I sent you this email, you know. 00:42:56:01 - 00:43:17:20 Speaker 3 Well, and it's crazy, exceptions like, we can think that we said something or we think a client said something, and then when it's written down, we write it back down, and then the client region, like, that's not what I said or that's not what I meant. I was like, well, that's what I heard. And so that's what I was going to schedule or like, well, you know, we might tell them verbally while we're meeting. 00:43:17:22 - 00:43:34:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. Let me, let me get a price on that because that's above budget. So we'll have to, work up a quote for that. And they might just in one year out the other. And then in that recap meeting email or daily log or whatever, they see that, I'm going to get a price for my electrician to add that they're like, oh, I didn't know that was going to be extra. 00:43:34:22 - 00:43:44:19 Speaker 3 You're not going to waste your time on. I don't want to pay any extra for not that important to me. Like, oh, okay. So having that follow up I think is is huge and something we could, we can definitely improve on. 00:43:44:21 - 00:44:00:18 Speaker 1 How have you seen, Cade grow and in the role kind of going back to growth development training. And actually we'll talk on training here in a second separately. But how have you seen Cade? You know, kind of grow from the the green guy. Yeah. Okay. Have you seen him change and grow into that role? 00:44:00:24 - 00:44:37:01 Speaker 3 I think, that organization, has definitely improved. You know, knowing that he's, walking a jobsite, meeting with subs, meeting with a client or an architect and taking notes, and following up on all that. I think, there's definitely been growth and even. I mean, it sounds kind of obvious, but it's, in knowing how to read plans, and that's something that I think if you, you just have to do it a lot to get experience at it and get comfortable with it and like, hey, why did you build that that way? 00:44:37:01 - 00:44:54:24 Speaker 3 And, and oh, I didn't realize that the plans were saying to do that. But there's a lot less of that these days, and it's a lot more of even questions from him like, hey, the plans call for this, but I don't I don't see this in our budget. So what was our plan here? Or, you know, the architect called out this detail, and I, I've never done that before. 00:44:54:24 - 00:45:21:16 Speaker 3 Can you help me figure out who to call or. There's a lot more of that, I think proactively than reactively. And that's definitely a huge area of growth for him, is just, that he's spending more time reading through plans, and it's kind of the we love to say, slow down, to speed up. And so like that idea of, let's slow down now and take our time planning, thinking through this. 00:45:21:16 - 00:45:45:16 Speaker 3 And it will ultimately allow us to speed up the entire process rather than just I think he's a he is a go getter. And I said that we like that in people. We like that hungry aspect. And he's always been that way. But I think in the early days and weeks and months there, there was some times where it was like, just charge ahead and and do it, and then afterwards be like, that wasn't the right thing to do. 00:45:45:16 - 00:45:59:11 Speaker 3 Or, you know, kind of the the measure twice cut once. It was more maybe every now and then it was a cut 2 or 3 times. And if we would have just measured more. So he's definitely improved a ton in that, in that respect. So would you agree with that or. 00:45:59:11 - 00:46:01:06 Speaker 4 No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:46:01:08 - 00:46:06:24 Speaker 1 What kind of what kind of training. And support do you typically give your your project management staff. 00:46:07:02 - 00:46:24:15 Speaker 3 This is actually this was the in reading your your questions ahead of time. This is the one that I was like I should probably do a better job of that. Gba NP have a ton of great resources in terms of education. And I think we've, we've offered that over the years. And Cade's probably been to, what would you say, like eight. 00:46:24:17 - 00:46:52:17 Speaker 3 Yeah, 6 to 8, classes. There's the ABCs of homebuilding. I personally have, you know, I've got the a couple of NB designations, graduate, master builder, certified remodeler aging in place, 3 or 4 of those that that came with a lot of classes that I found really helpful. Yeah. And so it as you know, as a business owner, it's hard to pull your guys off of jobs. 00:46:52:17 - 00:47:10:09 Speaker 3 I it's and dealing with clients and subs to to go attend a meeting and I think sometimes we just sometimes I think need to just tell them, hey you need to do this because we feel like this is important because sometimes it's, oh, I already know ABCs of, construction or home building. I already know what I need to know about electrical. 00:47:10:10 - 00:47:19:18 Speaker 3 You're always going to learn something. Sitting in a class like that. Yeah, it may not all be brand new news, but it. You're almost always going to come out with at least one little nugget, and it's worth it for that purpose. 00:47:19:23 - 00:47:26:18 Speaker 1 And at least with those, those are like half day classes. So it's not like a full a full day commitment that you're that you're off the job site. 00:47:26:23 - 00:47:49:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. So that's that's a big one that I think we need to be doing better. And then, like I mentioned earlier, we've got our lead project director. That's kind of, Zach is, been doing it, 15 years or so, I think. And so just his level of experience and having that person that the guys know that they can go to really easily, that's not as busy as I am. 00:47:49:02 - 00:48:08:19 Speaker 3 It's easier to get Ahold of. And then we actually do a weekly, we do a weekly production meeting where it's me and Zach and the guys all getting together and going through each and every project. And there's a I think there's a lot of training that happens in that. And just like, hey, have you as you look at your schedule for the next few weeks, have you thought about this? 00:48:08:19 - 00:48:24:15 Speaker 3 When is this ordered yet? And they're like, oh no, I totally forgot about that. Or well, I was planning on and and there's some cool discussions that happen with that where yeah, it's like, oh, well, I see that you have your tile before your paint or your cabinets after your tiler before. And they're like, why are you doing it that way? 00:48:24:17 - 00:48:54:19 Speaker 3 Well, because this guy's slow right now. And so I know that I can get him in earlier than I usually do, and it'll save me a week later on. It's like, oh, cool, you've really thought about this. And there's other times that sometimes they've just forgotten to schedule something or don't think about something. And so I think that that internal, education, just in terms of in a and I like for us all to do that together so that they even came here's how Romero's running his project or here's the questions I'm asking on Zack's projects. 00:48:54:19 - 00:48:59:11 Speaker 3 And and so there's the hopefully they're learning from each other as well. While going through that. 00:48:59:13 - 00:49:18:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, we're set up pretty much the exact same way. I've got a, construction director, who's over the, the PMS and, yeah. So in our production meeting, we do the same thing. We go over every project, and oftentimes we find ourselves, on the whiteboard in the conference room, like drawing, like, how would you do this? 00:49:18:04 - 00:49:38:08 Speaker 1 What? To draw the detail on the whiteboard as we go and thinking through that. And, and it's just kind of hearing from, from everyone on the team, like how they would do it. And oh, did you think about this. Yeah. This this detail will make that better. And so it's that collaboration and the staff meetings. I think that is a again, a great, a great place to learn and grow. 00:49:38:08 - 00:49:40:15 Speaker 4 Yeah for sure. 00:49:40:17 - 00:50:07:19 Speaker 1 But also having that that senior guy Zach or Todd my case that the guys know, hey, this guy has been doing this or he's been at the company the longest. He's been doing this since he was 18 years old. He's been around the block. I know that I can go to him if I have a question about, you know, how, you know, construction wise, how this should happen or how does crafted or how to snell or do it? 00:50:07:21 - 00:50:13:06 Speaker 1 You know, that guy has been been with the company long enough to know that this is how the company operates, right? 00:50:13:06 - 00:50:13:16 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 00:50:13:16 - 00:50:36:05 Speaker 1 So do you think, you know, is is on the job training more valuable than than book than book learning? I'll put YouTube on the same level, kind of for this discussion as book learning. So on the job training, book learning and kind of educational materials, let's say, which which one's more important, I think. 00:50:36:05 - 00:51:06:11 Speaker 2 I mean, I think overall on the job training, I think doing it every single day and seeing the issues, rectifying the issues is, is just going to stick with you so much more than watching any video or reading any book could, that being said, though, I think there is a tremendous amount you can learn and once you're actually in in the industry, you're doing it every day and you're supplementing that with these the YouTube videos, the podcast, the books, and you can actually start implementing some of those ideas in real life. 00:51:06:11 - 00:51:12:08 Speaker 2 And I think that's the strongest package right there. I think I think you need both to be really successful. 00:51:12:10 - 00:51:34:17 Speaker 1 They say when you're when you're teaching something, there's there's the three steps to teaching. There's tell, show and do. And so I think when you, you know, when you're training somebody a new person, tell them what you're going to tell them, what you're going to tell them, do it and kind of show that, show them, do it for them as much as you can and then turn them loose for them to do it right. 00:51:34:17 - 00:51:44:15 Speaker 1 So those three steps kind of reinforce each other. But yeah, without that last step of actually doing it yourself, it doesn't it doesn't sink in. Right. 00:51:44:16 - 00:52:24:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Well and I think Kate made a good point that like it's I think maybe not the initial education. Like again, we don't require that our, our, project directors have a college degree or even a college degree in construction science. It's more that they've got the, the, the attitude and all of that. And then I think the, the, the book learning, whether that's YouTube or whatever, is almost more important as you're going to both maintain your knowledge, but also to grow in your knowledge, whether that's new products, new vendors, new suppliers, but also just then on the cutting edge of things. 00:52:24:23 - 00:52:49:05 Speaker 3 I mean, that's why you and I both often go to the International Builders Show in Vegas every year, or there's the Sun Belt Builder show in Dallas, and it's like being involved in those things, YouTube videos that were just, I think this morning Zach sent a YouTube video, to all the project directors and me and just said, hey, watch this recently and thought it was really good, especially as we have a lot of projects that are coming up on sheet rock. 00:52:49:05 - 00:53:09:18 Speaker 3 This is like a pre sheet rock, you know, framing and a mechanical punch list the things that you should watch out for by Jake Burton. And it was all awesome. And so all of us can watch that. You know either tonight or as we're sitting at a job site waiting for somebody to show up. And then people have been, you know, back and forth on that text thread like, oh, I loved this or oh, that's so cool. 00:53:09:18 - 00:53:16:19 Speaker 3 Thanks for sharing. That to me is is educational, but it's not a classroom obviously. Yeah. 00:53:16:20 - 00:53:20:19 Speaker 1 So I just send out funny, you know, funny Instagram Reels to my guys. 00:53:20:21 - 00:53:24:03 Speaker 4 Make them make my laugh. It's important to what. 00:53:24:05 - 00:53:38:05 Speaker 1 What kind of stuff do you like to just kind of seek out on your own? I mean, not site specific YouTube channels or whatever, but like, what types of things do you like to try to, you know, find information on and learn about and help it help to help yourself grow? 00:53:38:07 - 00:53:45:16 Speaker 2 I would say it is primarily podcasts that, is the vessel of that, and it is a lot of the. 00:53:45:16 - 00:53:50:19 Speaker 1 Your Project Shepherd podcast is a great educational tool and everybody should take advantage of that. 00:53:50:21 - 00:54:07:13 Speaker 2 And there's there's a lot, you know, I think a lot of people know of kind of the, the build show and kind of some of these bigger ones, but you do some more digging in there is and it's not just I don't just listen to them on construction. I listen to them from an architect's point of view. 00:54:07:13 - 00:54:26:06 Speaker 2 Designers point of view, just overall, point of view, just like workforce, point of view. I, I think that there is just, I mean, we sit in our trucks a lot throughout the day. We're driving a lot. So I think that is the, a really good time to kind of get some of that in is your, my job sites 45 minutes out. 00:54:26:06 - 00:54:48:24 Speaker 2 I'll throw on this podcast real quick, learn a couple things. And, I'd say that's the vessel of a lot of that YouTube lesser so now, but definitely is what kind of kicked it all off for me was, was finding a lot of those guys on YouTube. And I think you can just you need to be constantly, constantly learning, constantly evolving or you're just you're you're going to get stuck. 00:54:48:24 - 00:55:10:05 Speaker 2 And, you know, our clients have the same access to all this content that we do. And so if you're going into a situation with a client and they're bringing up, you know, this wall assembly type or, a special Hvac ductwork system or what? And you have no clue what they're talking about at all. I just think it's it's not the best. 00:55:10:05 - 00:55:14:20 Speaker 2 Look, and you just you need to be constantly seeking that. 00:55:14:22 - 00:55:29:01 Speaker 3 Well, and I think, I love the podcast format is so cool because if you think about it in terms of a 30 to 45 minute long podcast, that's like a class and, 00:55:29:03 - 00:55:33:08 Speaker 4 Or an hour and a half, maybe a exactly. 00:55:33:10 - 00:55:53:14 Speaker 3 30 minute to hour and a half. But that's think of it as a, that's a class. And like, you're taking a college class or a, a class on whatever that topic is. And if as a project manager, driving around the city, checking your various jobs, if you can get in 5 to 10 classes a week, that's pretty awesome. 00:55:53:14 - 00:56:06:18 Speaker 3 I mean, that's quite a bit of they're not all going to be stellar. I mean, not every podcast is your project Shepherd that good, that high quality level. So some are going to be duds. But if half of what you listen to a. 00:56:06:18 - 00:56:07:20 Speaker 1 Master gets paid. By the. 00:56:07:20 - 00:56:08:12 Speaker 4 Way. 00:56:08:14 - 00:56:34:03 Speaker 3 I know the time you had that stellar guy on Jesus. No. But if if if you can listen to ten a week and 3 or 4 of those have a really good, piece of information in it, or a new, way of doing things so that. Yeah, when that client ask you about something like, oh, yeah, you know, I was listening to a podcast about that recently and learned that we haven't done it yet, but you, you look knowledgeable and professional to the client these days. 00:56:34:03 - 00:56:55:14 Speaker 1 The clients are so much more educated than they used to be as well. Because the same resources are out there for us are out there for them. And so, you know, over the last few years, we've had more and more people come to us and request certain, you know, building science type products or techniques or whatever. And I'm always kind of amazed. 00:56:55:14 - 00:56:58:06 Speaker 1 I'm like, wow, you actually like, listen to this stuff too. 00:56:58:06 - 00:57:20:20 Speaker 3 And yeah, well, and it doesn't it doesn't always have to be even just building science or construction methods like we recently as a company, I kind of stumbled upon a book, called Unreasonable Hospitality. And it's, it's a guy that is a restaurateur and talking about just having hospitality towards people. And we're in the luxury space. And so that's a really important thing to us. 00:57:20:20 - 00:57:41:04 Speaker 3 But like there's podcast about that. There's the audio book. And then we've been spending the last 3 or 4 weeks of our team meetings, and we'll continue to do so for the next 3 or 4. Just talking about, you know, what? What do you get out of this? Or here's a short video we're going to watch. But that all came out of a podcast that I listen to, this guy being interviewed by a podcast that I'm that I regularly listen to. 00:57:41:04 - 00:57:52:09 Speaker 3 And so it's like, it doesn't have to be construction. It can just be how to be a better person, how to be a better, you know, a kids at employee employee, your business owner. All of that is valuable. 00:57:52:11 - 00:57:58:09 Speaker 1 Do you ever ask your your whole staff to watch a video or listen to a podcast or whatever and then and then talk about it? 00:57:58:09 - 00:58:13:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. So actually with this book specifically, we reached out and said, hey, let us know. I think this is a really good book. We will either buy you the audio book or will buy you the hard, hard copy. Tell us what you want. And we're just going to be talking about this over the next couple months. 00:58:13:08 - 00:58:24:09 Speaker 3 And then we've done the same thing with videos. Hey, y'all, watch this video. And either we're going to talk about it next week or we'll even just hey, at our team meeting, we're gonna watch this five minute long video and then sit here for 30 minutes and talk. 00:58:24:09 - 00:58:43:05 Speaker 1 About it again. It's like a class. It's like giving a class, to your employees and that's, that's a maybe a kind of a part of training that that's true that people don't think about. All right. So I think we're, you know, in the spirit of keeping this, not at an hour long, which which, Danielle, a little of we've had this discussion a few times. 00:58:43:08 - 00:58:47:00 Speaker 1 In fact, our last episode was so long, we had to split it in half. 00:58:47:02 - 00:58:47:19 Speaker 3 00:58:47:21 - 00:59:04:11 Speaker 1 The the one that came out today was part two, so, so anyway, to kind of wrap this thing up, what advice would you give other young guys? Well, young or just green starting out in, in construction project management, I think. 00:59:04:13 - 00:59:27:03 Speaker 2 If you don't have at least a little bit of passion for it, don't do it. I think that's number one. I think there's there's too many things in this, this profession that if you don't really love it deep down, that it's not going to work out. But if you do have that and you're getting into it, just try your best to you're going you're going to have I call it like the day of reckoning. 00:59:27:03 - 01:00:01:02 Speaker 2 You know, reckoning. You'll you'll have this one day. That is just horrible. I mean, nothing and I and I very much have that day in my mind and, it you kind of just question is this right for me? Is this what I should be doing? And so I think just constantly evaluating where you're at, evaluating how you can get better and just, just kind of pushing through, there's going to be there's going to be some, resiliency that you're going to have to build up in, in this industry, and you're going to have to be strong willed at times. 01:00:01:04 - 01:00:19:17 Speaker 2 And you're going to have to suck up to your mistakes a lot. And so just get good at that. You're good at being honest. And people see that there. I've never I've never had anyone get mad at me because I was honest with them. So I guess there's a few little things there. Yeah, hopefully. 01:00:19:21 - 01:00:23:13 Speaker 1 Matt, what's your advice for aspiring project directors? 01:00:23:13 - 01:00:46:00 Speaker 3 I mean, it's not to be a dead horse, but it's the humility. Hungry. And then, like I just said, the honesty, just those three things. If you can keep that in mind and it works with any job. But I think especially in our industry, and in this, role specifically, you got to realize that you don't know everything, even if you do have a ton of experience, you don't know everything. 01:00:46:02 - 01:01:03:20 Speaker 3 And so have that humility. And then just be honest, whether that's about a mistake that you made or, okay, it's good at this point, now that he's got some experience under his belt and, and he'll push back sometimes I'm like, I don't I don't think that's the right way we should do that. Or I didn't do it that way because of this. 01:01:03:20 - 01:01:13:23 Speaker 3 And it's I respect that and respect that he he approaches that in a respectful way. But he's also comfortable enough to be able to do that, and have a discussion about it. 01:01:13:23 - 01:01:36:09 Speaker 1 So that's great. So I, I think that kind of keeping your, your mouth shut and your ears open, which is kind of part of humility. I think that's, that's my biggest piece of advice to somebody starting off, especially somebody who hasn't kind of, you know, worn the bags and been in the field doing the job, is just, you know, listen more than you talk. 01:01:36:13 - 01:01:36:24 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 01:01:36:24 - 01:01:45:10 Speaker 1 Have you, Melody. All right. So, this this concludes our, or Cade's, performance review for the year. 01:01:45:12 - 01:01:45:15 Speaker 4 I'm. 01:01:45:15 - 01:01:50:21 Speaker 1 Going to go ahead and recommend that he get at least a 10% rate, increase the profit sharing to. 01:01:50:21 - 01:01:54:24 Speaker 4 The boss that that how often can we do this podcast? 01:01:55:01 - 01:02:00:14 Speaker 1 But Matt and Kay, thank you all so much for being here today. Really really appreciate it. It's great to see both of you. Yeah. 01:02:00:16 - 01:02:01:13 Speaker 3 Appreciate you having us, man. 01:02:01:14 - 01:02:12:14 Speaker 1 And as always we'll be sure. And link. Sneller. On our show notes, social media, all that kind of stuff so folks can find Sneller custom homes and talk to you guys about building houses and. 01:02:12:14 - 01:02:13:04 Speaker 4 Yeah. 01:02:13:06 - 01:02:27:16 Speaker 1 And, yeah, again, I've said this many, many times, you guys absolutely do things the right way. You're one of those companies that I kind of see you on a list of people who are people are talking to aside from us. I'm like, dude, I don't care if they hire us or they're going to get a great. 01:02:27:16 - 01:02:28:14 Speaker 3 Deal the same way. Mean great. 01:02:28:14 - 01:02:32:21 Speaker 1 Products. So love you guys. You're awesome. Thank you so much for being here today. 01:02:32:22 - 01:02:34:07 Speaker 3 Absolutely. Thank you man. 01:02:34:09 - 01:02:39:17 Speaker 1 All right. And thanks everybody out there for listening to the Audio Project Shepherd podcast. I will see you next time. Thank you so much.