00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:17 Speaker 1 If you only had one clip from this entire podcast, maybe to put in front of a homeowner, it's understanding what the stress cycle looks like for trees. 00:00:15:19 - 00:00:17:13 Unknown By the time I get a phone call. 00:00:17:18 - 00:00:36:11 Speaker 1 That a post oak looks bad and it's got borers, you know, beetles in it, it's way too late. The question you had to ask is, how did that tree get there? Very likely it started because, you know, past ten years has been a hard time to be a tree in these parts. Droughts and freezes and may major rain events. 00:00:36:16 - 00:00:53:19 Speaker 1 Let's say a drought happens and maybe you're not watering yard enough or a drought happens and then you overwater, right? So tree get stressed on from a drought. Then you overwater for a long period of time and the roots get stressed. They can't get oxygen. That starts a cycle where the tree starts declining a bit. 00:00:53:21 - 00:01:11:20 Speaker 3 You know, it's really amazing. The trees have made it this long. In the world without us, it's amazing that they've evolved as far as they have without, you know, our help. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I am your host, Curtis Lawson. And today we are going to get into a very shady topic. 00:01:12:00 - 00:01:30:02 Speaker 3 It's all about trees. Unfortunately, I've seen trees really kind of be a complete afterthought by a lot of builders and, developers and homeowners. And whether that means protecting the trees that they have or thinking about what they're going to plant or what they're going to do, like long term on the property after the house gets built. 00:01:30:02 - 00:01:49:18 Speaker 3 And so, for some reason, that always seems like an afterthought. And often people, I think, do kind of the bare minimum and they just go with whatever the city or the local government wants them to do or makes them do. And so I've been wanting to do an episode for a while now. Let's talk about the whys and the how's of tree care tree selection. 00:01:49:20 - 00:02:12:21 Speaker 3 And so joining me today on the podcast is my friend Chad Hester's, and, I met Chad through, I think, through toner casting, who's one of my regular guests, almost like a co-host here. Toner, does some work with Chad, on some expert witness stuff and various things that they're both involved in. So, but Chad is a board certified master arborist. 00:02:12:23 - 00:02:30:06 Speaker 3 He has a degree in forestry from Texas A&M, and he's one of the few folks out there in the area qualified to conduct things like risk assessment and evaluate tree diseases like, okay, well, Oh, and I almost forgot to mention his company name. He is the owner of Paloma Tree Consultants. So Chad, thanks for joining us today. 00:02:30:07 - 00:02:31:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, thanks for having me. 00:02:31:04 - 00:02:31:22 Speaker 3 Did I get all that right? 00:02:31:22 - 00:02:38:12 Speaker 1 Yes, that's exactly right. My wife, my wife just essentially says I'm an epic tree nerd, and she's probably not wrong. 00:02:38:14 - 00:02:44:05 Speaker 3 So tell us about, you know, Paloma Tree consultants, what you guys do and how you got into doing this. 00:02:44:05 - 00:03:06:03 Speaker 1 Paloma Tree Consultants and is really just me. And, I am a I'm a consulting arborist, which means I don't own a tree care company in the sense of, you know, we don't, we don't do tree trimming. Tree pruning. We try to serve the place in the market between homeowners, business people, developers, construction companies that need. 00:03:06:05 - 00:03:26:21 Speaker 1 They've had a problem statement trying to solve for around their trees. They need information. They need options. They want to get smarter. And they need they need non conflicted help to try to make that determination. A lot of a lot of my practice is based in really sound science education and sort of best practices, across that, that spectrum. 00:03:26:23 - 00:03:45:12 Speaker 1 But then applying it in the art that is in your industry, you know, there's a set of plans that look great, but actually making it happen takes a little bit of art sometimes. And so I, I sit between that and that conflict of interest is one of my clients, I think is probably one of the main reasons people use a consultant. 00:03:45:12 - 00:04:01:23 Speaker 1 Arborist is they know that we're not taking kickbacks or referral fees or anything like that from, from any kind of service who might use or recommend. And we're trying to give the best, most honest opinion we can on a, on a situation. 00:04:02:00 - 00:04:11:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. So you're not making a few extra bucks off the tree gets removed, right. Like you're not, you know, you're not going to kick back from a right from the tree removal company or you're not removing it yourself and making a profit on that. Right? Right. 00:04:11:22 - 00:04:26:17 Speaker 1 And, you know, people just seem to tend to trust the circumstances a little bit more. If I'm standing there and say, hey, I think this tree's got to come out. If you know, it's different, if your guys are behind you sharpening their saws and they're like, how does it really? 00:04:26:18 - 00:04:27:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:04:27:03 - 00:04:40:12 Speaker 1 So yeah, that's you know, that's really the the value proposition is like any consultants and stuff that you do and, and toner, as you mentioned, is helping people get the information they need to make good high quality decisions. 00:04:40:12 - 00:05:08:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's one of the reasons I love consulting. It feels good to be able to to give somebody an expert opinion on something. And now what they do with that information is to is totally up to them. But it feels good to be able to talk to somebody about it. Whether, you know, for you trees or for me consulting with people on how their projects going, the best way to go about that project, without them feeling like I have an ulterior, ulterior motive to get them to buy something else from me. 00:05:08:14 - 00:05:08:21 Speaker 1 Right. 00:05:09:02 - 00:05:23:13 Speaker 3 You know, I love the I love the the consulting world. But it is frustrating, though, and I'm sure that you experienced this too, when you you give somebody that good advice and then you watch them do the exact opposite or just kind of half ass listen to you, man. 00:05:23:13 - 00:05:43:14 Speaker 1 We could probably swap stories for a really long time on that topic, but yeah, but people, you know, I say, hey, it's your tree, it's your house, right? Right. I mean, and you're going to do what would you want to do with it? My job is to try to, you know, I guess, educate you the options and you can choose your option and I'll, I can make my best attempt to tell you the implications of those options. 00:05:43:14 - 00:05:44:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:05:44:10 - 00:06:07:06 Speaker 1 But you know, the the great example is and you see this in the development where a lot and you see it particularly in the urban and suburban environments where, you know, somebody is doing a remodel or they're doing a new home build and they've got some great, you know, Grandmother Oak tree in their front yard. And they're like, oh, man, we really gonna we're going to build around that, that tree. 00:06:07:12 - 00:06:23:04 Speaker 1 Right? Or we're going to put a pool right next to it. Right. And you're like, okay. But you know if you do that, you're going to end up removing, you know, 50% of the tree's root system. Tree's probably dead in two years or so. And they're like, yeah, but it's going to look good. You're like, best of luck. 00:06:23:06 - 00:06:31:07 Speaker 3 Hey, I saw this picture on Instagram of a house built around a tree, you know? And that's what I want, right? It's so cool to have the tree growing up out of the house. 00:06:31:09 - 00:06:50:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. And you know, some of that's architects fault. If they're if it's an architect driven project, but some of it's not I know a lot of really high quality architects and home construction firms that will tell the client specifically like, this is a bad idea in the client's. Nope. We're doing it. All right. Yeah. So it's, my recommendation. 00:06:50:02 - 00:07:10:18 Speaker 1 Anybody in your in your audience here? That might be an architect or in, you know, construction company or something is. Get it. Get it on paper. Yeah. You know, tell your client about the risk. It's inherent in that. Get some good advice. You know, obviously, I'm recommending and using a consulting arborist to give a report, and I'm sure we can get into that later in the conversation about development. 00:07:10:18 - 00:07:22:18 Speaker 1 But, you know, you want to detail the risk of messing with trees during construction to clients. And then unfortunately, in today's litigious environment, you got to kind of cover your rear end a little bit on that. 00:07:22:23 - 00:07:46:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. And and think about, you know, what are the long term implications to the, to the structure. You know, if the if the tree lives and grows and the root, the roots, get into the foundation or if that tree dies and suddenly, you know, and we've talked about this before on some, some foundation topics, if that tree dies, the amount of water that tree is drinking every day is tremendous. 00:07:46:05 - 00:07:55:08 Speaker 3 And that if that tree dies, all of a sudden, all that excess water is now staying in the soil, right? And your house is going to move. So there's a lot of considerations to. 00:07:55:10 - 00:08:05:21 Speaker 1 Well, in the opposite, you plant that that live oak tree right next to your house that you just built, and it grows like trees do. It's pulling water out of the soil. 00:08:05:21 - 00:08:06:18 Speaker 3 Right. 00:08:06:20 - 00:08:37:00 Speaker 1 So you can have the opposite problem, two over ten, 20 year period. You know, time and yeah, the in in tree world the phrase that solves most problems is the right tree in the right place. Right. Most of most the tree problems we see in the urban and suburban environments are going to be like somebody just thought it was a great idea to put four live oak trees, six inches from their house, you know, and and there's just no way you're going to solve that. 00:08:37:02 - 00:09:00:05 Speaker 3 Yeah. All right. So, like I said in the intro, I feel like oftentimes trees kind of get pushed to the backburner, when people are planning projects and we've done a couple of episodes about landscaping in the past, and it's it's kind of the same thing. I think often people don't think about the trees, you know, as part of the landscaping, but trees specifically, people don't think about it until the very end. 00:09:00:05 - 00:09:23:08 Speaker 3 And, or maybe the end of the planning process, even the design process that. Yeah, usually, you know, you start by designing the house and then the landscaping gets designed and, and maybe the trees or even at the tail end of that thought. And so oftentimes the budget is kind of gone by them. They're like, man, we've already spent a million and a half on building this house now. 00:09:23:09 - 00:09:47:10 Speaker 3 Yeah. The thought of spending another hundred, 150, $200,000 on landscaping, it's like ouch. And so now we've got to find places to cut back. And so I know that people I feel like people know the value of trees and their property. I mean, it's something we hear all the time when you're talking to your realtor or, you know, you're driving through the neighborhood like you can see the value of the trees and you hear about the value of trees. 00:09:47:12 - 00:10:06:20 Speaker 3 So it's not like it's, a place of ignorance. People aren't ignorant of the value. So so, you know, why do you think that kind of tree, you know, kind of tree planning, whether it's keeping existing or planting new. Why do you think that's kind of almost kind of like a back burner thing for people? 00:10:06:20 - 00:10:29:13 Speaker 1 It's interesting the, the incentives around sort of the tree thing. I think people think that trees are a lot more hardy and they than they really are, because you can do something in and around a tree and it can take years to manifest because, you know, unless you're, like, doing something catastrophic to it, like, you know, cutting it down or running a truck into it or it's a hurricane. 00:10:29:15 - 00:11:06:09 Speaker 1 A lot of times you don't see the implications of it. And so people think, oh, the trees are pretty, pretty hardy. And, well, they don't require the care. They actually do. But your point about, the value of trees, I mean, there's a lot of empirical and anecdotal evidence around property values with trees. It's the reason that if you search the internet, probably and type in, I haven't done this, but I'm assuming if you were to type in, like, you know, ideally like a Bourbon street, right, it's probably going to pop up one of the big leafy trees everywhere, because in our minds, that's kind of what we think about, at least in 00:11:06:09 - 00:11:33:06 Speaker 1 our culture here. You know, we could sort of think about like, oh, that that's a great place to live. And it's because trees, you know, if you think about Houston in particular, like this is a major, major, you know, is a major and heat environment when it comes to like the reflective nature of the concrete, trees in a neighborhood can lower your average daily temperatures from anywhere from 5 to 20°F, like that's scientifically proven. 00:11:33:08 - 00:12:01:23 Speaker 1 They filter out of the air, they control erosion. They are excellent for water management in a, you know, city like Houston where we get a lot of water and flooding, you know, trees have a lot of benefits in the urban ecosystem. And I think people inherently know that they might not be able to articulate it. But they know, they they know that the world is better with trees in it and why they wait to the last minute. 00:12:02:00 - 00:12:06:11 Speaker 1 And unfortunately, a lot of the stuff I do is forensic in nature and, like. 00:12:06:13 - 00:12:07:06 Speaker 3 What went wrong? 00:12:07:06 - 00:12:26:18 Speaker 1 My tree's dead, and I'll go and take this. You know, I've got, like, a soil, plug puller. Right? And I'll put it in the ground, pull it out, pull 18in of, soil cap out of there and you'll see turf grass where they put the turf in 8in or 10in of fill. You know that orange filter to stabilize stuff. 00:12:26:20 - 00:12:55:01 Speaker 1 And then you'll see the original soil and and the tree's roots are all compacted and and and and they didn't think about it during, during construction. So as much as it sounds like a plug, it's really not like you got to get a qualified arborist in years with the architect when the plant during the planning phase, as you mentioned, you know, and evaluate what it is they want to do, evaluate the trees on the property, which ones are healthy and should even stay. 00:12:55:03 - 00:13:15:19 Speaker 1 Right. And then so now you're limiting by doing that you limit the trees. You've got, you know what you've got, you know what you can work with. And if you tell the arborist this is what we're trying to do here, then that can also feed into can, you know, protection during construction er maintenance plans. Yeah. But it's, it should be done early. 00:13:15:21 - 00:13:37:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. So one of the kind of the first topics I wanted to touch on is, is that the protection and the preservation in a lot of, cities have tree protection requirements. Now, whether they're enforced or not is another story, I think. Euston. I gotta be honest with you. And I build on houses in Houston. I don't even know if if the city of Houston requires it. 00:13:37:00 - 00:13:57:11 Speaker 3 I know they don't enforce it, that certain neighborhoods do, like, we're we're building a house in, Tanglewood and Tanglewood. HOA has has real strict rules about that. Some of the smaller cities within used to like West you Bel Air Memorial villages, they require tree protection. They require a report from an arborist as well. 00:13:57:12 - 00:14:23:17 Speaker 3 But again, the biggest municipality that I deal with, which is which is city of Houston, kind of turns a blind eye unless it's like on a historic street and there's a bunch of giant old oak trees on the street than they might care. Right, right. But, I think because you're dealing with a big city who doesn't really enforce any of that or doesn't seem to care, a lot of builders kind of have this attitude of what to do, the bare minimum. 00:14:23:18 - 00:14:41:02 Speaker 3 And it's, you know, it's like a lot of other things with, with, with many builders and developers. It's like, let's, let's do the let's build, let's build the code minimum, let's do the least that we have to do to get by. But when it comes to the tree protection, when, when people are forced to do it, I think they just do the bare minimum. 00:14:41:02 - 00:15:06:01 Speaker 3 That's required. So whatever. You know, if if the city of Bel-Air says you got to put up a chain link fence so high within a certain perimeter, let's just go buy the cheapest thing we can get up to meet the bare minimum requirement, and not really worry about the other steps that are kind of required. So just putting up a little fence around the tree is is kind of might meet the spirit of the code, but really it doesn't offer that much protection. 00:15:06:05 - 00:15:21:18 Speaker 3 There's more steps that are required to properly protect that tree. And so let's let's kind of talk about, you know, you know, what are the steps to properly protect the tree beyond just putting up a little chain link fence or a wood picket fence around the tree or in construction. 00:15:21:20 - 00:15:47:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. And that that fence you're talking about is in the, you know, in the industry it's called the tree protection zone. Right. And where that fence goes, well, in fact, the tree even putting up a fence is very helpful. Right. Because, and the probably in order of impact to trees on construction sites, the, the, the biggest impact is going to be compacted soils. 00:15:47:02 - 00:15:47:15 Speaker 3 00:15:47:17 - 00:16:07:03 Speaker 1 Right. I mean tree roots, they need oxygen, they need to get water. And if you have compacted soils and you know, in our soils around here, you drive skid steers over them long enough, they're going to, they turn the concrete. Right. And, and that's the kind of thing I was mentioning earlier about how they tend to take a while for the tree. 00:16:07:03 - 00:16:30:12 Speaker 1 You see the impact. But there are steps you can do to, to mitigate it. But the best time to do it as you mentioned, is, you know, during before it happens. Right. Now the thing about, about protection of trees during construction is and you and you alluded to it earlier, you have to ask the question early on is this, does this, should this tree even be here. 00:16:30:12 - 00:16:49:17 Speaker 1 Like, are we trying to round peg square hole this. Yeah. Right. Are we is is the tree going to be able to survive in this environment? What's happening with the soils? What's happened? The space constraints around the tree, you know, height, width. What's the yard going to look like if the landscape plans to come in and put up, you know, big tree beds around a. 00:16:49:18 - 00:17:17:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'll give you example water. I got a lot of water oaks around here. Those things have probably anywhere between a 40 and a 60 year lifespan. If you got a 50 year old water oak in your yard and it's hard, it's kind of on the back end. The decline curve and then you're going to the plan is to come in and build, a, flower bed around it and scrape off the the Saint Augustine grass and put in zoysia on top of it and water the heck out of it every day for the rest of your life. 00:17:18:00 - 00:17:43:04 Speaker 1 Like that tree is not going to survive. Yeah. So the first step in tree protection is just even asking the question, like, man, should this tree be here, you know, okay, if the answer's yes, then that tree protection zone is probably the most important thing you can do. And, the way to think about it is, as you get so, you know, think about tree canopy, right? 00:17:43:04 - 00:18:10:04 Speaker 1 The drip line of a tree is the extension of the tree canopy as you get from the edge of the drip line going into the towards the trunk of the tree. It's a logarithmic scale on the amount of damage that happens as you work your way in. It's not a linear scale, so if you're going to put in a irrigation system and you need and you're at the drip line of a tree, probably okay, true. 00:18:10:04 - 00:18:31:17 Speaker 1 Probably survive. Might want to do some root pruning. As you're doing that, you put that irrigation system four feet from the tree and cut 50% of the root system. Right. Might as well not to have the tree. The the width of that tree protection zone is very important. And I would say it's the most important thing, builder, developer, homeowner could do to protect the tree. 00:18:31:19 - 00:18:57:10 Speaker 1 Outside of that. Then you think about root damage from utilities, irrigation systems. And then I would say, finally, the third thing that happens during construction, that is a big impact is it's usually in the absence of true protection zone, but people, contractors, jobs or dumping out clean out concrete buckets, you know, next to the tree or their story materials or they're parking under it. 00:18:57:12 - 00:19:18:18 Speaker 1 And all these things have a cumulative effect. So the tree protection is the most important thing you can do. And then preventing access, you know, underneath that, that drip line to the extent possible. The caveat I'll give you is I've never seen a development project. When we had a perfect circle tree protection zone right around the tree, right next to the house. 00:19:18:23 - 00:19:20:03 Speaker 1 So there's always a compromise. 00:19:20:04 - 00:19:41:09 Speaker 3 Yeah, a lot of the lots just aren't big enough. I mean, like, the one that we're building right now in Bel Air, it's a corner lot. And there's only two ways that we can get into access the house. So there's sidewalks there. You got two streets, and it's only a 6000 square foot lot to begin with. And we've got, I think, four big trees to protect. 00:19:41:09 - 00:19:58:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know, in the city code said you're supposed to take the whole drip, drip line of the tree and put the fence up. If we did that. And did you know where to build the house? Right. And so we had to compromise and go as far as we could to still provide access to get to the site to, you know, to build the house. 00:19:58:01 - 00:20:04:14 Speaker 3 And so it it's probably half of the drip line instead of the whole drip line. But yeah, you're. 00:20:04:14 - 00:20:05:04 Speaker 1 Doing what you get. 00:20:05:04 - 00:20:06:05 Speaker 3 What we could do. Right. Yeah. 00:20:06:05 - 00:20:26:13 Speaker 1 And that's the one I was mentioning, the kind of the art of the the art of the practice, if you will. Most of the time when, when a, when a, I mean, present could be excluded. But when a builder hears the, the homeowner wants to bring in an arborist, a lot of times we're like, oh, man. 00:20:26:13 - 00:20:36:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Right. Because because they know, like, life's about to get harder or they're going to make life, you know, difficult or whatnot, or put in a tree zone and the suburbs are going to complain. There's no place to eat lunch, you know, that kind of. 00:20:36:07 - 00:20:38:01 Speaker 3 Thing, right? 00:20:38:03 - 00:20:55:22 Speaker 1 And I feel like I spend a lot of time, being the guy between the homeowner, the builder, the subs, the architect, and and trying to, this is probably an, this is an old dated reference, but did you ever see the movie animal House? 00:20:55:22 - 00:20:56:12 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. 00:20:56:13 - 00:21:18:04 Speaker 1 Do you remember that scene at the end of it where Kevin Bacon, standing in the middle of the. He's in his ROTC uniform, and he stay in the middle of the intersection, and it's like a riot and and mass hysteria around him. And he says, remain calm. All is well. Right? I feel like I'm Kevin Bacon. And a lot of times because you get these very, sometimes very uninformed and, but disparate viewpoints. 00:21:18:05 - 00:21:42:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the value of a consulting arborist that has seen the movie before, not just animal House, but the tree movie. Right, is, is that they can sit there and be the compromise and hear everybody and come up with a plan that brings people together. You know, the worst arborist you could have come out is, you know, the tree hugger, all trees are all trees are good no matter what. 00:21:43:01 - 00:21:46:04 Speaker 1 And there's no such thing as a compromise. That's not helpful. 00:21:46:07 - 00:21:46:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:21:47:00 - 00:22:00:06 Speaker 1 So I think I think, you know, much like in your advisory business, your job is to try and understand what people trying to do and do the best thing for the tree. And that's in those circumstances. But it's never going to be hundreds of perfect. 00:22:00:07 - 00:22:22:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. So introducing an arborist into the equation, I think people tend to see that it complicates or think that it complicates things. And I think also people see that as maybe just another added expense on the project. But, you know, the most, most builders, I say most want, you know, they want to do things the right way. And most clients want to do things the right way. 00:22:23:00 - 00:22:59:07 Speaker 3 So I think sometimes it's it's just coming from a place of ignorance, of not knowing that this is what we need to do. But, this is one of the reasons that, you know, building something the right way and using a good builder with a good team costs more. You know, it's it's also the, you know, the reason that, you know, when, you know, I give somebody a proposal for construction as a builder, you know, my cost for the project is way higher than the the other guy they're talking to is the cheap guy, because I'm already working with all these other team members who add some incremental cost. 00:22:59:09 - 00:23:16:17 Speaker 3 And is is it required? Do I have to do it? And no, but do I, do I want to do it that way because it's the right thing to do, the right thing for the client, the right thing for the for the project, the right thing for all the components of the project life, the trees. Yeah. And so that's the reason that we cost more than other people. 00:23:16:19 - 00:23:34:20 Speaker 3 And I think that's something that, doesn't always get taken into account when people are looking at their project budget. Again, landscaping trees are often kind of at the tail end of the budget conversation. And so when when those topics come up, they're like, man, we just got to save some money here and not even mess with that. 00:23:34:23 - 00:23:35:17 Speaker 3 So. 00:23:35:19 - 00:24:02:18 Speaker 1 Because they had the $50,000 change order for appliances, if somewhere, you know, and, and you get to the in the project and there's not a lot of money, you know, maybe the best way to handle that is it's all about expectations. I hold the view that it's like that with any relationship, whether it's your spouse, your kids or your friends or colleagues or clients, like setting expectations, understand what people care about and so upfront asking the question, how would he care about this? 00:24:02:21 - 00:24:24:07 Speaker 1 How important are these trees to this project? Is it you know, there are people I was on, on a project a while ago where there's this big marquee oak tree. And they were trying to do a remodel on this family home that's been in the family 5 or 6 generations. And like, the great grandmother planted this oak tree and, and so adds a lot of sentimental value. 00:24:24:09 - 00:24:44:21 Speaker 1 And it wasn't until we were on site walking around and and, you know, I asked the homeowner, I was like, hey, Tom, for trees. And and it led to them, told me the entire family's history, which happens a lot with me. I hear a lot about people's life stories, when it times their trees or what's happened in their lives right now because it's they're really connected to them. 00:24:44:23 - 00:25:01:13 Speaker 1 That's a really good signal that people care about a tree. And so you, you know, note to self, as you're putting in your bid, you're like, hey, we heard you. And that'd be a piece of advice that I'd have for especially for building contractors, probably more. The custom home situation is your spec homes. You know, they're not really getting into that. 00:25:01:15 - 00:25:27:20 Speaker 1 But when a client tells you the trees matter, write it down, and then it almost gives you permission to put it in your in your spec, it's like, hey, here's a thousand bucks for, you know, for us to have us or, you know, consulting arborist come out on the front end, back end and then help us with, with Post-Construction, you know, a thousand bucks on, you know, $1 million remodel, rounding error. 00:25:27:22 - 00:25:28:06 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:25:28:08 - 00:25:48:07 Speaker 1 And if you tell them about that upfront, it it sends a signal that you're listening. Yeah. You care about the little things, which I think is a little thing. But to your point, it. Yeah. And so, it's a way as a, as if you're a, you're working at the high end of the market. I think it's also a way you can differentiate yourself between every other home builder out there. 00:25:48:09 - 00:26:05:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, so when, when you're going over your final budget for the project and they ask you, hey, why do you have X thousands of dollars in there for that? And, and you say, well, you know, you told me during our first walk through that that you used to swing in that tree as a kid and that your grandfather planted it. 00:26:05:11 - 00:26:07:17 Speaker 3 So I put this extra money in here because of. 00:26:07:17 - 00:26:08:02 Speaker 1 That. 00:26:08:05 - 00:26:13:03 Speaker 3 Right there. Like, wow, he actually heard what I said, you know, three months ago when we started this process. 00:26:13:03 - 00:26:15:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. And they may strike it. They may go. I don't worry about it. 00:26:15:12 - 00:26:26:10 Speaker 3 The they're like, well, you know, I talked to someone in that tree's almost dead anyway. Okay, well, that's cool, but at least they know that you, that you heard them and that you care about that component of their of their their memory, their life. 00:26:26:11 - 00:26:43:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, I would I mean, this question for you. I know, I know, you're interviewing me, but the question for you is, I mean, when you're doing custom home builds, I mean, what percentage of those clients value being heard? I mean, that I would imagine is pretty high. 00:26:43:06 - 00:26:44:17 Speaker 3 Like, yeah, I mean, that's how. 00:26:44:17 - 00:26:45:01 Speaker 1 You win the. 00:26:45:01 - 00:27:08:12 Speaker 3 Job. I would hope all of them. Yeah. For sure. I mean, one of the, one of the things in fact, I was kind of plugging this into my computer, my mental computer here. You know, one of the things that we do when we start a project with somebody is we give them a questionnaire, that talks about, you know, their family, how they're going to use the property, what things are important to them, what activities do they like to do? 00:27:08:15 - 00:27:31:13 Speaker 3 And I'm sitting here thinking, I need to add a question on them, on, on my questionnaire that ask them about, you know, landscaping trees. Are there any special things that we need to preserve tree wise and things like that? But yeah, I mean, we ask those questions up front because we want to understand what's important to people, know what drives their decision making. 00:27:31:15 - 00:27:36:00 Speaker 3 And, so that's kind of one of our ways of listening to them. 00:27:36:02 - 00:27:36:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:27:36:15 - 00:27:38:02 Speaker 3 Okay. Any more questions for me? 00:27:38:03 - 00:27:40:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, I got some up front. 00:27:40:06 - 00:27:59:19 Speaker 3 So how do we kind of getting back on track here? How do we decide whether or not we're going to keep a tree? So, you know, we mentioned that, you know, some, some trees, you know, are or aren't worth keeping, whether it's, the age of the tree, the health, whether it's interfering with the building. 00:27:59:23 - 00:28:05:08 Speaker 3 But what are some other considerations that go into deciding whether or not that that should stay or go? 00:28:05:13 - 00:28:27:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. If it's an existing tree, it's already on the property. You really got to take into consideration sort of spatial constraints, right? Height and width, like what's going to be going on in that tree, as I mentioned, you know, in the in the tree protection zone, like what's going to happen on the ground? I mean, this, this is I don't know if this is very scientific, but I believe it to be true. 00:28:27:14 - 00:28:55:20 Speaker 1 I think about 80% of tree problems happen below ground. And and so you you got to ask the question like, what's happening to the soil around it? Are we putting sod in? I mean, you know, golf courses and trees need really different care. In fact, the way you take care of grass is almost completely inverted, the way you're supposed to take care of a tree because, you know, grass needs frequent, shallow watering, right? 00:28:55:22 - 00:29:26:00 Speaker 1 Trees need infrequent deep watering. And that conflict is sort of the problem we find in the in the urban or urban, a suburban environment. So the question around what are some of the things you think about that you know, regarding the tree is, well, how's the space going to be used? What's the landscape plan? Is the building going to be, you know, if the if the buildings right next to the tree right now, it's a young tree who in five years, ten years you just asking for a massive conflict, right. 00:29:26:00 - 00:29:44:04 Speaker 1 So you got to think about the not just the current state, but what does the future state look like? And you also got to take the time to ask the question about what's the condition of the tree is if the tree's likely to be declining in the next five years, is it better to take it out and replant now? 00:29:44:06 - 00:29:54:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, so how you use the space and the condition of the tree. Not just now in the future, really the probably the primary things that you really got to consider. 00:29:54:17 - 00:30:19:15 Speaker 3 How do you deal with, with cities, cities, counties, municipalities in general, that have, you know, a lot of restrictions on what you can remove. I mean, some cities are very, you know, they're easy to deal with it. They have somebody on staff that understands kind of a give and take. But then I've also seen some cities who are just insane. 00:30:19:17 - 00:30:42:18 Speaker 3 The cities are insane. And they want you to keep something that's, It's not worth keeping, but it's in there. It's in their right of way. And, it's it's one of their protected trees, and you got to do it, right? So, I mean, how do you how do you deal with the situations where you've got a, maybe a city arborist or maybe there's not even an arborist on staff, but just the city planning. 00:30:42:19 - 00:30:45:14 Speaker 1 Like the maintenance crew, you know, that has to. 00:30:45:16 - 00:30:50:09 Speaker 3 The planning department, right? Like. Nope. You got to keep those trees. Yeah. How do you deal with that? 00:30:50:11 - 00:31:14:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, I, I think the first thing to do is you want to strike a tone that is non combative as possible. I mean, you think about like put yourself in their, in their shoes like the city of Houston, you know arborist I mean how many, how big a pile on their desk. Right. Well actually maybe Houston's not a good example because they don't really have as as developed tree ordinances and stuff, but like a place like Austin, I mean, they can make life difficult on you. 00:31:14:13 - 00:31:53:00 Speaker 1 So I've been told, right? That person's got a huge stack on their desk. So the first thing to do is you got to think path of least resistance. As a homeowner, you screaming at the city and tell them how bad you don't like their policy when they get in line. Right. But if you can have somebody that can consultant arborist that knows the language and knows how to approach it from safety, health and health of the the environment around it, you know, safety, I mean, human safety, the damage to the home, potential failure rates into the, into the city streets, those kinds of things that happen, trees get to help the tree and do 00:31:53:00 - 00:32:16:14 Speaker 1 it in a very objective way. My experience has been is that most of your HOA is even with sort of very aggressive, you know, restrictions. They'll listen to it. What they don't want, what member what they're trying to prevent is the person taking down the 200 year old live oak tree to put in the second game room addition? 00:32:16:19 - 00:32:17:03 Speaker 3 00:32:17:05 - 00:32:34:11 Speaker 1 That's what they're trying to prevent. They're not trying to prevent a tree. That's sick or has a limb that's sticking over the house has got a crack in it from being removed. Right. But you got to be smart about it. You gotta be professional about it. And you got to make a path of least resistance is my recommendation. 00:32:34:13 - 00:32:50:09 Speaker 1 And and once you do that, I've had a pretty good hit rate. Why don't you sit down and explain to them you got a good piece of paper, especially if it's from a credentialed of reports from a credentialed, non conflicted, you know, advisor. Yeah. Oh they tend to listen pretty well. You just might have to wait a while because their backlogs. 00:32:50:11 - 00:33:09:01 Speaker 3 There are some, some pretty crazy restrictions in some of the cities, especially in the hill country. I had some family that was building a house in, kind of a city inside of Austin called Sunset Valley. And I think the Verde, if you've dealt with them or not. But it's a small, a small municipality, kind of like Bel Air West, who is inside of Houston. 00:33:09:03 - 00:33:30:15 Speaker 3 But, man, their their restrictions were insane. And, and like every tree in the world is on is on their protected list, right. And so for them, it added a couple of months worth of planning and back and forth with the city trying to negotiate on what could and couldn't be done during construction. 00:33:30:17 - 00:33:50:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's unfortunately there's this idea that, you know, all trees are good and and that's not necessarily the case. I mean, we've got a lot of invasive species that have shown up around here. I'm the former, board president, the Houston Arboretum. And, we went through a major, effort a few years back to, try to restore the landscape. 00:33:50:08 - 00:34:06:14 Speaker 1 And I would encourage any your visitors in this area or any of your listeners in the area to be visitors at the hour room. Go check it out. But the amount of invasive species that have shown up in Houston over the years is incredible. And a lot of those things are not safe trees to have around their messy trees. 00:34:06:16 - 00:34:08:06 Speaker 3 And Chinese tall trees. 00:34:08:06 - 00:34:31:21 Speaker 1 And they're just named probably for number one. Right. And, and, and I think trying to explain to an HOA that like, hey, down, all trees are good. We should take out this, you know, this declining Chinese tallow in this person's yard and replant. Here's the reasons why. That's a conversation that needs to have a lot of people can differentiate. 00:34:31:21 - 00:34:38:17 Speaker 1 They just see green and they're like, okay, green is good and green has to stay. Yeah. Which is not the case. 00:34:38:18 - 00:34:59:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. So on on the on the back side of that on the the city is requiring that you protect things. They also often have a list or a requirement of what you, what you have to install install plant after the the house is done right to get your final inspection. And most cities have a list of trees. 00:34:59:18 - 00:35:21:11 Speaker 3 Here's our approved or approved tree list. I've seen a lot of people just kind of look at that list and say, okay, what's the cheapest tree on the list? Okay, okay, I can get, you know, whatever. Tree. That's three inch caliper. Let's go by that at Home Depot and put in the ground. Right. You know what what what considerations should there be for? 00:35:21:13 - 00:35:33:16 Speaker 3 You have this list. What what considerations are there for? Okay. Which ones should we plant here? Yeah. You know, and what are what are the reasons, you know, again, to avoid planting certain trees. 00:35:33:18 - 00:35:54:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think for the people that care. And you're right, there's the my HOA says I have to have two trees in the yard. I'm going to go pick the ones that are on sale that have been in the pot way too long. They'll be dead in three months, you know, we'll drop them in, but for the people who really care about it, I think you really got to understand what the tree is. 00:35:54:02 - 00:36:09:08 Speaker 1 The first question to ask is, what's the right tree for the right place? Right? How much space do I have? Does this tree tolerate sunlight? Does this tree tolerate shade? Does is it a low lying spot? That's going to have a lot of water. 00:36:09:08 - 00:36:10:11 Speaker 3 What's the drainage around it? 00:36:10:11 - 00:36:21:04 Speaker 1 What's drainage around? I mean, there's some trees around those on those list you reference that do really, really well with wet soils. And there's a whole bunch of trees that hate having their feet wet over a long periods of time. 00:36:21:09 - 00:36:25:02 Speaker 3 What and what kind of soil is it? Right. Is it kind of is more sandy? 00:36:25:05 - 00:36:43:19 Speaker 1 PH levels matter a lot, you know. And and so I know it sounds like a lot. And I'm not trying to overwhelm people with the answer, but to answer the question of which tree from the list. And actually those lists tend to be pretty good. They tend to be native species that have been established for a long time. 00:36:43:21 - 00:37:00:01 Speaker 1 We know how they act in the in the environment. We know the requirements. So a lot of times the problem is not the list. The problem is the point you bring up which is wrong tree, wrong place. So taking the time, there is a, there's a really, I think it's kind of fun. But then again, I'm a tree guy. 00:37:00:03 - 00:37:19:02 Speaker 1 There's a website run by the Texas Forest Service called the Texas Tree Selector. I think it's Texas tree selector.com or org. They've got a couple different ways you can do this, but you can go in as a homeowner. It doesn't require a lot of extra expertise and start entering the requirements in for the space you're looking at to plant a tree. 00:37:19:04 - 00:37:29:00 Speaker 1 And it'll provide you a list that at least get you kind of 80% of the way there. It's a really great tool. I recommend Builders Homeowner take a look at it. If you're cottage, you're contemplating tree. 00:37:29:00 - 00:37:50:10 Speaker 3 One tool that we already have when we're building a new house, at least, that I think a lot of people never even think about looking at is we have to get a soil test done for our engineer, try to plan the foundation right. And so they're going to be coming out on that property and taking it at least where we were at two borings 15 or 20ft down. 00:37:50:12 - 00:38:02:11 Speaker 3 And it's going to show you the soil types throughout that 20ft. And it's going to show you where the water table is. The water table is close to the surface. So I mean, I think that would be a great tool to look at when you're trying to decide what kind of trees to plant. 00:38:02:12 - 00:38:03:18 Speaker 1 I couldn't agree more. 00:38:03:20 - 00:38:09:03 Speaker 3 You know, give that soil report to an arborist and say, hey, what tree do you think would work well here? 00:38:09:03 - 00:38:32:04 Speaker 1 I've been accused of, using, soil. Soil? Reports, too much. But if you if you subscribe to the belief that 80% of tree problems happen below ground soil matters, and, you know, a fact a lot of people don't know is that most trees in our area, 80% of those tree roots are going to be in the top 18in of the soil. 00:38:32:09 - 00:38:33:00 Speaker 3 00:38:33:02 - 00:38:54:07 Speaker 1 So, you know, there's this there's this misconception that a tree's root system is really deep. Looks like the inverse of the crown. Right, right. Because we've all seen pictures, you know, of, of over a life of like this root system being really deep and broad and actually it looks more like a, like a wine glass on a dinner plate with the dinner plate being the, the root system. 00:38:54:09 - 00:39:18:19 Speaker 1 So soil tests are really important, but you only need the top, you know, 12 18in of the soil. To really get, you know, understanding of what you're dealing with. And I would recommend and I do recommend and use it frequently, those types of soil tests because it'll tell you a lot about the soil. And there's some, there's some chemical properties of a soil that's really hard to change, like pH. 00:39:18:21 - 00:39:36:03 Speaker 1 I mean, you can you can monkey with all you want to try to make it more acidic or alkaline, but it's really hard to take a really small piece of soil, you know, in the context of, you know, a city and change its pH permanently. So, yeah, I'm a big advocate of soil testing. 00:39:36:03 - 00:39:46:23 Speaker 3 And that soil test. Also, if you know that, you know, the depth of like, a Sandy Lim layer is a certain amount versus a stiff clay, that's going to tell you how that's going to drain as well. 00:39:47:04 - 00:39:48:07 Speaker 1 Or not drain or not. 00:39:48:07 - 00:39:49:04 Speaker 3 Train. Yeah. 00:39:49:06 - 00:39:50:22 Speaker 1 Which is really our problem here. 00:39:51:00 - 00:40:13:23 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah. I mean here in Houston we have so much, so much, highly expansive red clay and that that the water doesn't drain through that clay like it does through sand. Yeah. So what are some other factors when we're talking about selecting a tree? I mean, there's there's also there's the esthetics, right? I mean there's like, is is the, the color palette on this canopy going to work with what we're doing with what else we're doing here. 00:40:14:01 - 00:40:32:14 Speaker 3 But also thinking about, you know, if, if the purpose is to shade an area of the yard, how wide is that canopy going to be? Right, right. And it's talking to somebody like yourself that kind of knows what these different species are going to look like in five years, ten years, 20 years. 00:40:32:16 - 00:40:52:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, in my, my bag when I'm doing these projects, I carry a, you know, 100ft tape measure, you know, the the ones that wind up spool, spool. Yeah. And I will I'll show the client. I'll be like, hey, okay. You want to. You're interested in playing a live oak here or whatever for your grandkids, you know, because, you know, you plant a tree for the next generation. 00:40:52:09 - 00:41:10:00 Speaker 1 Really? And I'll show them, okay. This tree at maturity, typically is going to have a 60ft, you know, canopy span or something. And we'll, we'll put it out on the ground and give them the opportunity to kind of try to see it in there. And then I'll try to describe what the canopy is probably going to do. 00:41:10:02 - 00:41:40:12 Speaker 1 But, you know, the the number one thing that, that people don't think about till after the fact, is maintenance, for example, there are some trees that shed all the time, but take up a country country is always dropping something. Right. It's dropping bark itself, prunes the limbs and stuff and it's got the pecans and leaves and, and then it gets aphids and so a lot, a lot of countries get aphids and they drop that honeydew which is really just excretions from the, the bugs. 00:41:40:12 - 00:42:02:11 Speaker 1 But it sounds better call honeydew and and they'll put you know, they'll like, they'll have in their pool neck next to countries. And it's just a constant maintenance battle. Oaks kind of do the same. You know, they tend to produce acorns and shed stuff. There's a misnomer that that live oaks are evergreen. They're not evergreen. 00:42:02:11 - 00:42:21:06 Speaker 1 They do change out their leaves. They just do it in a kind of a different cycle. So they kind of always looks like they have leaves. But you really ought to think about, you know, pools and playground areas and where you park your car, you know, and this kind of stuff, gutters, you know, if you don't have trees anywhere near your house, I have gutter guards. 00:42:21:11 - 00:42:27:10 Speaker 1 It's all these little things that around tree maintenance that people don't realize after until after the fact. 00:42:27:10 - 00:42:40:16 Speaker 3 Yeah. And one big factor that we have here in the Gulf Coast area is, you know, hurricanes, which you touched on a little bit in hurricanes and wind storms and things like that. And, you know, some, some trees handle that better than other trees, right? Yeah. 00:42:40:16 - 00:43:02:01 Speaker 1 Well, I'm really glad you brought this topic up. We've seen in fact, I was, had a, consult in Houston a couple weeks ago, in one of the neighborhoods. Got really hammered by barrel, and you could drive down the street. And one of the unique, if you know what you're looking for, the trees that had gotten sustained more damage. 00:43:02:03 - 00:43:22:07 Speaker 1 Were the trees that had been over pruned, and not maintained enough or had never been touched and had a lot of you just stuff in their canopy. And I'll I'll give you an example. You see it all over Houston on Live Oaks. There's something called lions tailing, right where, they strip, all of it. 00:43:22:07 - 00:43:37:22 Speaker 1 They think about, think of a long, sort of meandering branch from a live oak. We've all seen them. If you live around here, and you strip everything off that branch on to get to the very end of the of the of the limb, and, just like a little tuft. 00:43:38:00 - 00:43:41:21 Speaker 3 Yeah. I'm, I think is my house is. This is exactly like this. 00:43:42:00 - 00:43:58:21 Speaker 1 Well, it's it and, well, don't feel bakkers. I mean, it's like it's all a facade. I'm convinced that there was, like, probably some really rich guy, like, I don't know, a hundred years ago or 80 years ago somewhere in town that did it. And it was like, oh, we want to be like him. And and then it just sort of permeated. 00:43:58:21 - 00:44:33:01 Speaker 1 It is the worst way to prune a tree. One of the reasons is that trees have grown up to live. Oaks have grown up in the coastal areas here, knowing how to deal with high winds and high energy situations. One of the ways they do it, is by having canopies that absorb energy and diffuse it, right? So if you ever watch an old live oak that's never been pruned before, when a hurricane hits it, it tends to move and ebb and flow, with the winds, and it dissipates that energy pretty good. 00:44:33:03 - 00:44:36:09 Speaker 3 Because all those branches over the whole thing are absorbing them. 00:44:36:11 - 00:44:55:04 Speaker 1 Right? It's a system, right? It's a system of energy absorption and transfer. And it works really, really well because that tree has been evolving for a really long time to be able to do that. So when you go to a tree and you over prune it in lines tail, like in this example, you create a system where physics is going to, you know, physics is going to happen. 00:44:55:06 - 00:45:16:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, right. And that, that, that, that force, that wind is going to hit that tree and it can't dissipate the energy. And so you've got all this force and the end of a long branch that's, that's whipping around. And if you have even one minor defect anywhere in that, that, that engineering construct of that limb, it's going to put a lot more stress on that snap off. 00:45:16:23 - 00:45:39:12 Speaker 1 So you drive around neighborhoods, post hurricanes, the trees that were well maintained over the life, they don't fail at the same rate. And what you say is they fail at a much lower rate than those that are taking care of. And so, but, you know, strong, strong advocate for people taking care of the trees, especially in hurricane and, and, or zones where we get a lot of ice and windstorms. 00:45:39:12 - 00:45:57:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. So that's a, your, your description of the trees. Like I said, my I've got two water oaks in my front yard. In fact, you've you've come to my house and looked at them for me. There's two water oaks in the front yard. I've been there for ten years. But, you know, when I moved in, they basically, you know, up here like they do now, the big lion's tail branches. 00:45:58:04 - 00:46:14:06 Speaker 3 And sure enough, during the hurricane barrel that we just had that exact thing happened, all that pressure was put out on the tips of those branches. And I had, I think, three limbs right over my house snap off, bounce off my roof and right and land on the driveway. 00:46:14:09 - 00:46:31:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm sorry that happened. Yeah. Tree. But you're not alone. And and, so I think it's, you know, using science to understand and, how the world, how well that world works. Our trees and then the arts, just the application of it is, you know, what we're talking about here. 00:46:31:06 - 00:46:49:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. So let's kind of keep talking about care and maintenance for a little bit. That was kind of my next topic here in my notes. You know, like everything else with your house and I've said this, use this example many times, you know, your your house doesn't have a check engine light and your tree doesn't have a check engine light either, although the trees, at least they're outside. 00:46:49:12 - 00:46:54:15 Speaker 3 You drive up, you walk up, you see them all the time, and they'll give you signs if you know to look for rain. 00:46:54:15 - 00:47:17:06 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, I recommend holding on to the tree tight and whispering to it and listening very closely. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm kidding. That's what I do. Doesn't really work. But, you know, if this is going to sound pretentious, but if you know what you're looking for, the trees will tell you something's wrong. In the same way, you can look at a house and be like, okay, we got issues here. 00:47:17:08 - 00:47:37:03 Speaker 1 Which is sort of the the case for having experts in, I mean, in anything that you need help with and know what they're looking at. But at the average homeowner, it is amazing how intuitive people actually are. Like, I give I give my clients a lot of credit. A lot of the calls I get is like, hey, something's not right. 00:47:37:05 - 00:47:58:18 Speaker 1 And I mean if you're a parent you've you've seen that to your kid. Something's not right with your kid one day and you're like I don't know what it is but we probably need to go the doctor that intuition tends to hold true with homeowners, especially if they care about their trees. And, would you feel that when you look at your tree and you're looking at your neighbor's tree or like something's off here, the colors off or, like, that's usually pretty good sign. 00:47:58:18 - 00:48:21:20 Speaker 1 You ought to listen to that. So that's there's that. And then there's the more like, acute things like, oh, we just had a windstorm, and that looks like it might be a crack or gosh, the, there's this big crack around the, you know, the, the root area around this tree, and it looks like it may have lifted up a little bit or something. 00:48:21:22 - 00:48:59:10 Speaker 1 Right. The last windstorm. It's these little, little signs that that that you should pay attention to. A leaf. That drop is starting to drop. Leaves too early. Or the leaves are changing colors. Pretty good diagnostics. Bark coming off a tree. If you see really large mushrooms or fungal coming off a tree trunk or even, God forbid, the root system, that's another really good sign that, hey, we might want to, you know, now at that point, maybe too late if I can make one recommendation other than prune your trees correctly, somebody knows what they're doing. 00:48:59:12 - 00:49:19:20 Speaker 1 I recommend getting a certified arborist that you know that's on a tree company staff to to do that, the next thing you can do as a homeowner to really help your tree issues is monitor the moisture and soil. 15 bucks on Amazon. You can buy one of these little moisture meters, right. And it says, you know, dry moist to wet on it. 00:49:19:20 - 00:49:43:22 Speaker 1 And they're really great. Get one with like a 12 inch probe on it so you can get down to that. Then the root system and it's kind of walk around your yard, and your goal is to try to keep that moisture meter around your tree right in the middle at, you know, moisture, you know, but not in the wet zone and not overly dry because that and where we live here, that's probably the number one. 00:49:43:22 - 00:50:11:04 Speaker 1 Moisture management is probably the number one, issue that starts a tree stress cycle. I'm going to go on a little bit of soapbox here, but if you only had one clip from this entire, podcast, maybe to, put in front of a homeowner, it's, it's understanding what the stress cycle looks like for trees. By the time I get a phone call that a post oak looks bad and it's got borers, you know, beetles in it. 00:50:11:06 - 00:50:34:13 Speaker 1 It's way too late. The question you have to ask is, how did that tree get there? Very likely it started because, you know, past ten years has been really a hard time to be a tree in these parts and droughts and freezes and may major rain events. But when it when a tree gets stressed, like, let's say a drought happens and maybe you're not watering yard enough or a drought happens and then you overwater, right. 00:50:34:13 - 00:50:53:09 Speaker 1 So tree gets stressed on from a drought. Then you overwater for a long period of time and the roots get stressed. They can't get oxygen. Well, that starts a cycle where the tree starts declining a bit. The bugs. Bugs typically only attack trees that are stressed, right? And the bugs show up and. 00:50:53:13 - 00:50:55:20 Speaker 3 The lions hunt the week animals first. 00:50:55:20 - 00:51:20:16 Speaker 1 Right? It's it's law of nature, man. And and the fir. You know it. You've got this spiral, this downward spiral that started with a stress event that was a drought or overwatering or and and if you think back to high school algebra, you remember the equation. It's like we'll use the example here like tree stress equals factor A plus b plus C in our current climate conditions that we're experiencing. 00:51:20:16 - 00:51:42:21 Speaker 1 And this is not a political statement. This is I look at trees and nature a lot. And something's different in the past 1015 years. Okay. In that environment where trees are already stressed, with the climate pendulum swinging between freezes and droughts and all this stuff, sometimes it's just the addition of one more factor that causes that tree to decline or die. 00:51:42:23 - 00:52:00:00 Speaker 1 That could be your irrigation system was put in too close. You over fertilized too much, right. And change the chemical composition of the soil. Whatever it is, it can be that one thing. So try to prevent the problem, try to prevent that cycle from happening and the best way to do it is monitor soil moisture. 00:52:00:05 - 00:52:04:07 Speaker 3 You know, it's really amazing. The trees have made it this long, in the world without. 00:52:04:07 - 00:52:05:13 Speaker 1 Us. 00:52:05:15 - 00:52:14:00 Speaker 3 Without us doing all these things to take care. You know, it's all right. It's it's amazing that they've evolved as far as they have without, you know, our help. 00:52:14:02 - 00:52:15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, sure. 00:52:15:10 - 00:52:39:23 Speaker 3 So, I wanted to talk about, you know, kind of the value of, of the maintenance or, sorry, the value of hiring a professional to do the maintenance. And that's and that's from a variety of ways. So that's the value of hiring a qualified consultant such as yourself, but also like a legitimate tree care company, versus just the guy in the unmarked truck with a chainsaw on a trailer. 00:52:40:00 - 00:52:41:07 Speaker 1 Right. 00:52:41:09 - 00:53:04:06 Speaker 3 It's it's just like choosing a contractor. It's like, do you want, do you want do you want the guy who's got a legitimate business and a base of knowledge and the credentials, or do you want to check on the truck? Yeah. With some with, with with the really tools, you know, so what's the, what's the value, the high level value in having a certified arborist that you're working with? 00:53:04:06 - 00:53:23:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, the caveat is I'm incredibly biased on this topic, right? I would just acknowledge that, but me too. But I think the way to think about it, though, is you got to think about tools in a tool bag, right? You've got your tool bag and your hammer, screwdrivers, pliers, whatever in it. Every job requires a tool, right? 00:53:23:08 - 00:53:41:09 Speaker 1 You got to use the right tool for the right job. You're not going to use a hammer to try to, you know, screw a we shouldn't use a hammer to try to put a screw in right? I'm sure you know, people have so I like to look at it from that perspective. Is that, you know, somebody like me is completely overkill. 00:53:41:11 - 00:53:46:11 Speaker 1 If you've got a dead tree in the middle of your pasture out in the country and you're like, oh, when you take the tree down. 00:53:46:13 - 00:53:47:04 Speaker 3 Right? Right. 00:53:47:04 - 00:54:07:03 Speaker 1 You don't need me to come up with, like, a dead tree. You take it out right? And so don't pay me the hourly rate. Right. You can use Chuck and a truck for that. There's no targets. Nobody's getting hurt. Right. But if you're conversely, you've got a major development project happening in an area with restrictions. You've got it's architect driven project. 00:54:07:08 - 00:54:25:22 Speaker 1 There's contractors around everywhere. The tree's important to the design right now. You're starting to get in a world. You need some varsity, you know, knowledge and experience to somewhere in that continuum, there's a place for everybody, you know, for example, you know, use the, like, it's pretty low barrier to entry to car yourself. A tree trimming service. 00:54:25:22 - 00:54:52:20 Speaker 1 You mentioned the pickup truck and a chainsaw, right? Yeah, that's that's true. There's a time and place for that guy. The average homeowner, if I can make, you know, a recommendation is if you're choosing a tree care company that's going to do their, your regular maintenance and pruning work around your house, pick a company that's, you know, probably been in the community while and, and they have a certified arborist on staff or as an owner. 00:54:52:22 - 00:55:16:02 Speaker 1 A certified arborist is they certification bodies, international society for board Culture. And it is recognized around the world as really the only body that certifies, arborist. And it's a it's a pretty high barrier to entry to get that certification. The certified arborist, there's a, body of work you have to study. You gotta take a test. 00:55:16:04 - 00:55:47:07 Speaker 1 It's pretty hard. You're not going to pass it if you don't study. I don't care how long you been in the industry. Like it's just hard. And. And there's things in that. That's all that that cover like safety and professionalism. Not just biology and tree care and pruning and all this stuff. So my recommendation would be that your, your local tree care company, find one that has a certified arborist on staff or is going to be your point of contact, or is an owner because the odds are their level of professionalism is probably a little higher than the chalk and a truck you referenced. 00:55:47:09 - 00:56:08:10 Speaker 1 And there and there's a lot of them because a lot of certified arborist out there, so they're not hard to find. The next step would be if you need to do you need consulting, you need, you need kind of an independent professional sport that can connect a lot of dots together. That's probably the role of the board certified master arborist, right? 00:56:08:10 - 00:56:25:20 Speaker 1 The BCmA, there's not a lot of us out there, relatively speaking. You'll find him at some of the tree companies, you'll find him at some of the more at the national level, tree companies, you know, the big shops and you and but most of your consults are going to be CMAs. And like I said, there's a time and a place to use them. 00:56:25:22 - 00:56:48:06 Speaker 1 There are there's a, there is a designation called the, like a registered consulting arborist. And, and that's a, that's a niche, certification that's used for like, a lot of expert with, you know, if somebody's suing somebody over what you did to my tree and there's appraisals are needed, and the lawyers need to, you know, have real formal paperwork to put together. 00:56:48:11 - 00:57:10:13 Speaker 1 That's really, really great application of what they do. But your average homeowner or average builder probably needs can be CMA for, you know, the, the connecting and and the experience of bringing people together in a project can know the holistic way to look at a tree. But if you can find a tree care company that's got certified arborist and is insured insurance, insurance won't. 00:57:10:13 - 00:57:11:16 Speaker 3 Be huge with trees. 00:57:11:16 - 00:57:16:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, if you got those two things, man, I think you're you're setting yourself up well for success. 00:57:16:12 - 00:57:35:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. And just a word about that. I mean, when you hire the, the the check on the truck again, there's, there is a time and a place for them. Just like there's a time and a place for kind of a handyman truck and a truck to, like, look like you're, you're not going to call me to come change batteries and your smoke detectors and all that kind of stuff. 00:57:35:02 - 00:57:56:01 Speaker 3 There's some great other companies that do that. There's handyman services. That's fine. But when you're taking on something like removing a tree around a property, there's a lot of liability that goes into that. You know, again, if it's middle of a pasture, who cares? You know, although, I mean, it could be argued there's some liability there too, right? 00:57:56:01 - 00:57:56:21 Speaker 1 There's liability. 00:57:56:21 - 00:58:00:21 Speaker 3 Guy drops the tree on himself and kills himself, and his wife sues you and whatever. 00:58:00:21 - 00:58:09:17 Speaker 1 But liability, safety, those things matter in all circumstances. But I would that come was more direct around that. So like the technical nature of the nature of the job. 00:58:09:18 - 00:58:30:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. But just like, you know, with, with construction, like make sure that the company that you're hiring has the right kind of insurance that's going to protect you should something goes bad. That tree falls on the neighbor's house, God forbid. Or, we actually had an instance on a project where, a tree fell and, and did some damage to some city property. 00:58:30:15 - 00:58:37:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. I think it was a light pole or something like that. The first time I'd ever gotten this, I got a bill from the city. 00:58:37:22 - 00:59:02:09 Speaker 1 So there's a there's a famous story or infamous story out there of a tree care company that was doing work in a residential neighborhood that was around some power lines. And there's some there's some rules and laws around who can do work around power lines, depending on their how much voltage there is. And, there's distances and all this, I mean, OSHA cares, Issa cares. 00:59:02:15 - 00:59:33:23 Speaker 1 The city cares for sure. Anyway, this company, was doing some work. They made a few mistakes. Tree or big branch or some drops on the power lines, like takes down power pole, you know, blows up the transformer to. Unfortunately, one of the crew died because it came in contact with, charged. You know, the charge lines, and the city of the municipality, I think as the story goes, I came after the homeowner as a it was involved in the lawsuit. 00:59:34:01 - 01:00:01:12 Speaker 1 And the legal wranglings of who's at fault. And there's a lot of finger pointing at, you know, the tree company, the individuals on the tree company, the homeowner, big mess. So you almost have unfortunately, in today's environment, you almost have to, you know, hope for the best, expect the worst. Make sure your own insurance is updated. You know, if you own trees in your yard, you ought to have make sure your homeowners, your insurance policy, understand what it covers, what it doesn't wind damage. 01:00:01:14 - 01:00:12:20 Speaker 1 You know, your wind policy is different than your homeowner's policy. What does that cover? If you've got big trees in your yard or near your house, and you certainly want to make sure people working on those trees are professionals and have coverage. 01:00:12:23 - 01:00:35:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. So you mentioned your, the expert witness stuff, which, which you do, and you mentioned one of the certifications that kind of, deals a lot with the expert witness stuff. What types of, cases come up, in, in court that require an arborist to to be an expert witness? Yeah. What types of things have you dealt with or. 01:00:35:00 - 01:00:35:12 Speaker 3 Pretty common? 01:00:35:12 - 01:01:01:10 Speaker 1 I try to avoid, expert witness courtroom work as much as possible. I've done I've done some work there. It's a real special person that likes to be deposed all the time, you know, or like, but the types of cases that come up and there is a, there is a whole lot of, believe it or not, of case law around the United States that has set precedents, both the state and every state's got it. 01:01:01:10 - 01:01:31:05 Speaker 1 But state, local, and even the federal level around tree law. It's probably for homeowners and and for contractors. The number one thing you're going to find is damage done to or by a tree that that was, you know, involve different property lines. So the classic one is tree that shares a property line on a fence line into and one, homeowner really likes it, the other one doesn't. 01:01:31:05 - 01:02:03:07 Speaker 1 And the one that doesn't goes in and shaves straight up the tree on their property line because, you know, I think I'm not an attorney, but I think Texas law has your property line going up like in the space, right? Yeah. And, and so you can kind of do what you want with it there, there are some interesting case law out there that says, okay, well, but if you did that and you end up causing irreparable damage to your neighbor's property, you might be responsible for replacing the part of the tree that you killed off. 01:02:03:09 - 01:02:22:04 Speaker 1 So now you're faced with a lawsuit, right? Where you say, okay, I killed off that part of the tree. That means 60% of the tree was left. Now, that person might be liable for 60% of a tree. What's the value of that tree? So a lot of the work I've done on the that stuff has been appraisals, around what was the value of the tree? 01:02:22:09 - 01:02:43:15 Speaker 1 Another example is I've done a few times is, pipeline, spills or pipeline construction where they come through with a right of way and they're going to be taking a tree out and the pipeline company or the contractor offers the homeowner, hey, here's five grand for your 200 year old. You know, live oak that's been in your yard forever. 01:02:43:17 - 01:02:49:05 Speaker 1 And they're like, no, it's not right. That's why justice is not served. Or the five grand check that. 01:02:49:05 - 01:02:49:14 Speaker 3 Right. 01:02:49:16 - 01:03:10:20 Speaker 1 And then, you know, somebody like me will come in and do an appraisal and be like, okay, that tree's probably worth $100,000. And it's a formal report, you know, with the, you know, done by a professional that's not affiliated with a family or anything. And then a lot of times the they'll start negotiation. Right. And I have a 100% hit rate on clients in that situation. 01:03:10:20 - 01:03:36:00 Speaker 1 Ended up with a lot more money in their pocket just because, you know, the guy on the other side of the phone, he's just trying to do the best, get the best deal he can for his company. Yeah. And, so there's another kind of set of court cases I think you're going to see that. You see. And that is the, damage caused by trees when somebody did something like put down, weed and feed too much weed and feed on one side of a lawn. 01:03:36:02 - 01:04:01:17 Speaker 1 And the roots of that tree were up in that neighbor's lawn. Roots absorb it, tree declines, falls on a house. And, the next hurricane, who's at fault? It's for the judge decide. Or a jury to decide. But what happens very typically is you get competing arbors, points of view. You do find two different, consulting arborist to write two different reports, and then they'll have to testify against each other but prevent their evidence in a court. 01:04:01:17 - 01:04:09:13 Speaker 1 That happens frequently. But, you know, your vast majority of them are going to be damage caused by somebody else. And the implications of that. 01:04:09:15 - 01:04:12:18 Speaker 3 You can always find somebody to back up whichever angle you want to. 01:04:12:19 - 01:04:13:18 Speaker 1 Generally speaking. 01:04:13:18 - 01:04:21:02 Speaker 3 You want to take on it. The valuation thing is fascinating to me. Like how do you how do you decide what that 200 year old tree is worth? 01:04:21:02 - 01:05:03:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, man. There's a text. There's text books. You know, that thick out there? On on that. And an entire field of study. There are without nerding out too much here. There's a there's depending on the circumstance, there are different valuation techniques that you would use, depending on the circumstances. The most common one for the, the most common one that you would use when you're trying to find the replacement value of a tree or what that tree was worth, is you measure the tree and come up with the size of the tree and in, from a couple of different variables, and then you find that same tree in a nursery and 01:05:03:02 - 01:05:34:14 Speaker 1 extrapolate the value. So if a one inch caliper or three inch is probably what you should be using for that example, if a three inch caliber live oak at your local nursery, cost you 200 and you just lost a 30 and a tree, you theoretically can extrapolate the value of that three inch to the to the 30 inch tree, and come up with a factor, and then you discount it based on the condition of the tree. 01:05:34:16 - 01:05:37:05 Speaker 1 So is the tree. 01:05:37:06 - 01:05:38:11 Speaker 3 Depreciate the tree? 01:05:38:13 - 01:06:04:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Is a whole set of depreciation value factors that go into that condition the tree, the environment, the circumstances. Right. All this sort of thing you depreciate good. Depreciate value. It's a very, very well known and very respected approach to doing that. And, and that that's the most common, common aspect is derive value from something that's easy to find, extrapolate it, depreciate it. 01:06:04:07 - 01:06:15:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's a really interesting thought. I never thought about, the, the negotiation for the value of a tree on a, on example, like a pipeline right of way. That's, that's really interesting. 01:06:15:09 - 01:06:26:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's interesting, but it's always sad, you know, when you get there in the homeowners just and most of the time yeah they're angry. Right. But they're just looking to get treated right. 01:06:26:03 - 01:06:59:07 Speaker 3 Well I mean and also I think thinking about the value of trees when you're when you're selling a property. Right. If you've, if you've got a property that's just a, let's say it's a lot here in town and it's a 10,000 square foot lot, a lot that's completely bare and empty. You know, put it next to another 10,000 square foot, kind of an equal, that has a couple of really nice live oaks on it that are positioned in such a way where you can keep them and protect them and build around them successfully. 01:06:59:09 - 01:07:05:19 Speaker 3 Meant the people are going to pick a lot of the trees every time that it's going to sell for a premium every time. 01:07:05:23 - 01:07:06:18 Speaker 1 Most definitely. 01:07:06:18 - 01:07:28:19 Speaker 3 You know, I've, I've been out shopping for lots with clients before, and there's certain streets that we go down, and as soon as you go down the street and you see the live oaks hanging out over the street, you know, as you mentioned earlier, kind of at the very beginning, it's like this feeling when you pull down the street and you see this canopy, it just makes you feel like you're in a neighborhood, that you want to be on a street that you want to live on. 01:07:28:19 - 01:07:45:14 Speaker 3 Right? It's like instant, instant memories, right? Versus, you know, and I think about this all the time when I go out to the suburbs, like when I go to, you know, Katy or Cypress or whatever, and you go into a brand new subdivision and there's no trees or there's nothing, but, you know, 1 to 3 inch caliper trees. 01:07:45:19 - 01:07:46:23 Speaker 1 Usually with too much mulch on. 01:07:46:23 - 01:08:08:04 Speaker 3 Them. Yeah. And you driving through the neighborhood, you're like, oh my God, this place is bleak. Like, I could never live here. Right? But then you go to, you know, five minutes away, you go to a neighborhood that was maybe built in the late 90s, early 2000. So now that that that neighborhood is 25 years old and those trees are really nice and you're like, man, this is a great neighborhood. 01:08:08:04 - 01:08:21:12 Speaker 3 Well, there's no difference at all. The houses are pretty much the same. The lots are the same size is the same distance from downtown Houston. But one's got more mature landscaping, more mature trees, and boom, it's more it's more desirable. 01:08:21:12 - 01:08:40:11 Speaker 1 Yep. And that's the reason why you asked their question earlier on. You know, around people. Why don't they think about the trees early on. They do. They're they're building that a new home or doing the remodel because they love the neighborhood. And you're right. Like for move, move tree cover from a neighborhood. And it does look pretty stark. 01:08:40:13 - 01:08:49:23 Speaker 1 But they think about it up front and sort of a holistic view like, oh, this is a great neighborhood. I want to be here. And then they sort of forget about it until, you know, after the fact. 01:08:50:01 - 01:09:12:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. So that's a great place to kind of to kind of wrap things up. I think we've kind of come, come full circle there. You know, so to kind of wrap things up, we always kind of go back to the team concept of working on a, on a construction project and having a qualified arborist tree professional, that those are just members of our of our project team. 01:09:12:00 - 01:09:38:02 Speaker 3 Right. And so, you know, we need to get you engaged early on in the process, you know, don't don't wait until something's wrong or there's a problem. You know, we need to kind of treat you as a member of the, of the team early to talk about, you know, getting a plan together. What other, you know, takeaways do you want people to have here about this conversation about successfully integrating an arborist tree care professional into your project? 01:09:38:04 - 01:09:41:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Bring them in early. 01:09:41:04 - 01:09:43:09 Speaker 3 Pay more money, make sure they're. 01:09:43:11 - 01:10:00:18 Speaker 1 Because that would help. Make sure you got a real profession on your hands and ask about conflicts of interest. It's okay to interview the arborist. It's okay to interview your builder. Okay. Did you know interview your architect, right. Make sure that an and this is going to sound maybe a little hokey, but make sure they're your people. 01:10:00:18 - 01:10:18:05 Speaker 1 You're on the same wavelength. You know, there are a lot of consulting arbors out there. Or there are a lot of certified arborist at least. And you want to find one that feels like they get what you're saying, and they really invest in your project, and they're they and they're yeah, like I said, on the same wavelength. 01:10:18:05 - 01:10:47:00 Speaker 1 So I would get them in early, make sure they're they're going to fit in with the rest of the team. Also allow them to interact with the team level builder, architect and finesse. When you're interviewing those people, one of the best questions you can ask is don't don't, don't ask him for their resume. Say, hey, man, give me two examples of a really terrible homebuilding, you know, construction development situation that you were exposed to and what happened. 01:10:47:02 - 01:11:02:03 Speaker 1 Right. Listen to their war story. Yeah. And if they're talking about things like communication went bad, planning process was done haphazardly or poorly. Like, that's those are the hallmarks of a professional that has done this before. 01:11:02:07 - 01:11:04:22 Speaker 3 That's great advice for everybody on the team. 01:11:04:22 - 01:11:05:13 Speaker 1 Everybody on. 01:11:05:13 - 01:11:09:03 Speaker 3 Your end. But when you're interviewing them as a as a potential team member. 01:11:09:03 - 01:11:30:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. And and it's a really good sign and sort of a I'm tipping my hat to you and people like you builders that are and, and construction advisory firms that are going to bring up the arborist idea early, probably a pretty good sign as a homeowner that you're working with a professional crew. They're even thinking like that. 01:11:30:17 - 01:11:49:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I mean, good, good people surround themselves with good people, right? And so good good builders, good architects are going to have that quality network. So yeah, again, if people are thinking about bringing arborist on board, they're probably already thinking through all the other team members that need to be in place. 01:11:49:16 - 01:11:50:06 Speaker 1 Right. 01:11:50:08 - 01:12:02:01 Speaker 3 So what what are the resources? You know, you mentioned a website where people can do some some research, but what other, resources are out there that you could recommend people take a look at online or books or whatever. 01:12:02:03 - 01:12:22:20 Speaker 1 The number one online resource I would recommend for your average homeowner is a website run by the International Society of Arboriculture called trees are good.org right. It's I mean it's a little bit of a hokey name, but it's it's actually a great website. They've got a lot of easily accessible information on there. You don't have to have a PhD to, to understand it. 01:12:22:22 - 01:12:43:12 Speaker 1 But trees are good.org, gives you a lot of information to categorize very easily to get to if you're a homeowner or tree owner. It also has the capability for you to find an arborist. You can go in there putting your zip code. You can put in, you know, your, a bunch of criteria and find people that are qualified in your area. 01:12:43:14 - 01:13:07:18 Speaker 1 Along with your contact information. So it's sort of like pre certifies for you and takes the house, a lot of them out of doing that. But that's a really good example. And you know, the extension agency for most states have a lot of really good science based information. The Texas A&M Forest Service has got, a lot of, a lot of information there, but so does Pennsylvania and Oklahoma and Alabama. 01:13:07:20 - 01:13:44:02 Speaker 1 And I would I would start with places like trees or good.org and your extension service for a good science based information. Like anything else on the internet, Reddit's and Reddit is interesting. Reddit is not always right when it comes to tree care. I'm a member of a, of a group on Facebook. That shall remain unnamed, but, people go there and, like, post their tree problems on there and, I more I'm more of a member because occasionally I look at it as, as like comedy because the recommendations that are given to these people on Facebook from their neighbors and other citizens is terrible. 01:13:44:03 - 01:14:02:15 Speaker 3 I'm I'm on a builders group. That's the same way. In fact, I've told Danielle before, I need to like screenshots and stuff. And, you know, I black out the names or whatever, but screenshot the conversation and then just do podcast episodes about this conversation that's taking place on these on these like construction homeowner Facebook groups. 01:14:02:15 - 01:14:22:22 Speaker 1 That's right. I thought like it's I watched the stucco podcast that you had here recently and I was it's sort of kind of like that, right? It's like, hey, I'm, I'm building a home in the, you know, lower swamps of, southeast Houston. What's, what's the best siding I could use? And, you know, there's always some guy it's like, oh, I'll check out stucco, you know? 01:14:23:00 - 01:14:28:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. I love I love cedar, cedar, shingle siding. And in that area, you know. 01:14:28:03 - 01:14:40:12 Speaker 1 But anyway. But yeah. So trees she's a good dawg. And the extension agency websites of almost any state are going to give you some good practical, science based, easy to access and use information. 01:14:40:12 - 01:14:52:17 Speaker 3 Yeah. And I'm sure that your alma mater, Texas A&M, has got some great information out there. They're one of the, one of the leading. They are the agricultural. The school's out there. And, and, you have a forestry degree if I do. Right? 01:14:52:18 - 01:14:53:20 Speaker 1 Yep. That's right. 01:14:53:21 - 01:14:56:00 Speaker 3 Yep. So you got plug your your alma. 01:14:56:00 - 01:14:58:05 Speaker 1 Mater, little guys. Yeah. 01:14:58:07 - 01:15:07:23 Speaker 3 All right. Well, thanks. Last thing, tell us, if people want to get in touch with you, give your, you know, website contact information where, you know, whatever you want to throw out there. Yeah. 01:15:08:01 - 01:15:30:04 Speaker 1 Paloma trip.com p a el Omar trip.com. Paloma. Spanish for dove. And, you know, I like that name a lot. So that's how it came about. And now we're not a huge store there, but plum tree.com. You can send us a note. We'll get back to you real quickly. And, I wish everybody the best of luck out there. 01:15:30:04 - 01:15:45:01 Speaker 1 A real valuable resources. And, you know, if you can get ahead of the of the the decline curve and the stress curve, keep your trees, the right amount of moisture in the ground and do a do a lot for homeowners and just remember, right tree, right place. 01:15:45:03 - 01:16:03:07 Speaker 3 Right. Well, thank you so much for being here today. It's been a great conversation. I've learned a ton. You know, I tell Danielle and others all the time, it's like I learned so much just from hosting these podcasts and having these conversations. I feel like, I got some great information today. So thank you so much. 01:16:03:10 - 01:16:04:07 Speaker 1 Thanks for having me. 01:16:04:09 - 01:16:11:11 Speaker 3 And thank all of you out there for listening and watching and, be sure and join us next time on the Your Project Chipper podcast. Thanks a lot.