00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:01 Speaker 1 Why kind of the wood fence around your house last 20, 30 years? But you get water behind the wall and it last a year, and you get rot and mold and all these things, and everybody's freaking out. Why is that? 00:00:11:05 - 00:00:13:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, because your fence dries. It's got air moving around it. 00:00:13:09 - 00:00:29:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Water is going to find a way. And if we're not doing little things ahead of time and maintaining things, you're going to have problems. 00:00:29:05 - 00:00:42:22 Speaker 1 Why is it that every other part of the home has a redundancy, in the sense of your AC as a drip pan that has not only wondering, but a secondary just in case, right. Why is it that your water heater has a drip pan just in case? 00:00:42:22 - 00:00:43:23 Speaker 2 And the temp valve. 00:00:43:23 - 00:01:05:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Why does the plumbing drain have a cleaner? Now, why do we have all these redundancies about when it comes to the exterior house that is going to get hammered constantly. Why don't we have any redundancies and we caulk things? It's good. I promise you, water. Water will find the way it once it finds a pinhole, and then it starts rotting things out and a pinhole becomes, you know, a bottle cap size. 00:01:05:06 - 00:01:22:20 Speaker 1 And next thing you know, you're seeing water on the inside. Because once you start seeing water on the inside, it's usually a bigger problem than what you think is, oh, I got a little I tell people and I want to say it right now, stucco is not the problem, right? It's not. Stucco is not the problem. It's our water control management and how we go about things. 00:01:22:22 - 00:01:28:23 Speaker 2 Right. 00:01:29:01 - 00:01:52:15 Speaker 2 Hey friends, welcome back to a new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson. And today we are going to talk about stucco. And it's something that we've touched on a few times on past episodes, and I've gotten some positive and negative comments from different guests that I've had in the past. It's one of those things that we see specified on building plans a lot here in Houston. 00:01:52:17 - 00:02:22:03 Speaker 2 Architecturally, it's a very pleasing product. You know, certain types of houses look fantastic with stucco, or they need that, that look, but it's gotten a bad rap over the years. And a lot of that, you know, honestly, has to do with bad installers, liens and issues with drainage and things like that to talk to me about stucco today, I've got Bruce on Ray, and Bruce is with Precision Development, a contractor here in Houston that works with stucco and some other, stone products. 00:02:22:03 - 00:02:23:16 Speaker 2 So, Bruce, thanks for joining me today. 00:02:23:21 - 00:02:28:09 Speaker 1 I appreciate you having me been, listening to the podcast for a while now. Super excited about it. 00:02:28:09 - 00:02:37:18 Speaker 2 I love it, I love it. So tell us to tell us what precision does. So stucco, obviously, that's what we're talking about, but what all services do you guys offer? Sounds like. Sorry. Yeah. 00:02:37:19 - 00:02:57:06 Speaker 1 A full service masonry contractor. We do a full service. Yeah, masonry. We do stucco, brick, stone, CMU. We manufacture, install our own cast stone. We've been in business since 1989. It was started by my dad and his partner. Originally, my dad started out by himself and Lance, and they joined forces in 89 and started off doing just brick. 00:02:57:07 - 00:03:19:12 Speaker 1 And then we started doing stucco and then started manufacturing on cast stone. And now we can do a little bit of limestone as well. So mostly the high in residential market where we focus on, we do do some repairs and remodel stuff like that. For a lot of our builders. We don't work for everybody. We work for a select few just because details are what we want to make sure we have when we we're taking care of those. 00:03:19:14 - 00:03:39:15 Speaker 2 Awesome. And we're going to get into a lot of that today because details are very important when it comes to stucco and and, and drainage especially. And so to the end of I've talked about drainage, you have started and here pretty recently kind of a side a side business or another business, with a range being product. 00:03:39:15 - 00:03:39:19 Speaker 2 Right? 00:03:39:19 - 00:03:57:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So with the new 2021 code, I'd always light green screen and I think it was 2020 was the first time I actually got to use it where builder actually spec that we're able to use it. And just so happened they had some recessed windows and they had a window leaking on the third floor, and I could see it coming out of the second floor window below. 00:03:57:21 - 00:04:32:07 Speaker 1 And it wasn't just a usual drip, you see, those black marks was a little drip here and there, like it was water screen coming out where I had a line ten feet long that you could see the water coming out in. And after that I was like, okay, well, let me do my research on this. And so then I start researching green screen and realize they've been around for a while, back in the early two, before the 2000, like the 1990s, if you look at Vancouver, they had the stucco pocalypse, and they've been requiring rain screens since 2000 because they had so many problems with condos and townhomes, and they weren't flashing things right. 00:04:32:07 - 00:04:55:22 Speaker 1 They weren't sealing things right. And it's everything we have going on in Houston right now. They dealt with in the early 90s and 2000, and they realized that having a true drainage gap was the key. That allowed things to drain the water and allowed it to dry. So now with the new 21 code coming out, I wanted to be able to put it on all my houses because back at the end, at the end of the day, it's all about money, right? 00:04:56:00 - 00:05:21:02 Speaker 1 So if I had this product where I'm adding two, $3 a square foot, you know, nobody could do that. They can't afford it because the other guy's not doing it. So I wanted to give something to where the contractor could be able to put it in and do it as a standard. So now in all our houses since 2021, we've probably done out of all the house, we've done hundreds of houses, maybe 5 or 6, that haven't had rain screened for the homeowner, not really the homeowner, maybe, the builder said, now I don't want to use it. 00:05:21:02 - 00:05:27:13 Speaker 1 You know, it's not in it's in code, but they're not requiring it. Yeah. So I don't want my son adopted yet. 00:05:27:13 - 00:05:27:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:05:27:17 - 00:05:39:16 Speaker 1 It's not adopted yet so I don't have to do it. So I don't want to do it. I don't want spend the money. I'm like, all right, well that's your choice. You sent me an email saying you don't want to use it, and I'm cool with it just because that's our standard. And like I said, we've done maybe 5 or 6 houses over that time period. 00:05:39:16 - 00:05:58:20 Speaker 1 Every other one, we've used it and when you see it work, I have videos, on my Instagram page where you'll see water going from a second floor window, and I'll pour a water bottle. It will take 30s for you see it dripping in, flowing out. Not just a drip, drip. Like I'm talking like water running. Yeah, there you go. 00:05:58:20 - 00:06:10:09 Speaker 1 You think about kind of the would fit around your house last 20, 30 years water. But you get water behind the water's last mile an hour. You get rock mold and all these things, and everybody's freaking out. Why is that? 00:06:10:13 - 00:06:12:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, because your fence dries. It's got air moving around it. 00:06:12:18 - 00:06:25:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So I tell people, and I want to say it right now, stucco is not the problem, right? It's not it. Stucco is not the problem. It's our water control management and how we go about things. Right. You know, I think. 00:06:25:04 - 00:06:46:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's the drainage plan. I absolutely I mean, I you think about, you know, stucco as a, as a cement, it's a porous product just like brick is a porous product. Right. Yeah. And the reason what, you know, walls over the years have it rotted out with a brick veneer on the exterior year is because guess what you've got, you know, a big air gap between your brick and your sheathing. 00:06:46:17 - 00:07:03:22 Speaker 1 An inch or two inches where, yeah, not only can air get back there and help ventilate things and dry things out, but water gets out of the system quickly, right? Because when you dam everything up, I promise you water, water will find a way. Yeah it won't. It finds a pinhole and then it starts rotting things out and a pinhole becomes, you know, a bottle cap size. 00:07:03:22 - 00:07:17:03 Speaker 1 And next, you know, you're seeing water on the inside, because why don't you start seeing water on the inside? It's usually a bigger problem than what you think it is. Oh, I got a little leak. No, you're OSB or you're sheathing is probably gone. And we're gonna have to take all at all. 00:07:17:03 - 00:07:25:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. If you're seeing water on the inside of the house, it's it's beyond just a small a small problem at that point. Yeah. It's already gotten through all those layers that are there. 00:07:26:00 - 00:07:46:00 Speaker 1 Exactly. And a lot of times people say, well, you know, you have a I have a stucco problem. I go over there and I see and you think, oh, well, the stucco is legal for stucco. If it let's say there was a crack or for water to get through a crack, it's got to go over three quarters of an inch and go through a half inch of plywood, then go through a two by four wall to then get inside. 00:07:46:01 - 00:08:04:17 Speaker 1 Water doesn't travel horizontal. It travels down. So once it's got to have an entry point. So a lot of times out of all the inspection reports we see and we get a lot, we do do quite a bit of stucco repairs. Out of all the ones I see I'd say 80 to 90% or balconies, faulty roof, faulty or missing roof, flashing kick outs, diverter. 00:08:04:17 - 00:08:05:13 Speaker 2 Parapet caps. 00:08:05:13 - 00:08:23:14 Speaker 1 Parapet caps, little things that we should be doing. And then windows. A lot of windows. Those old aluminum windows. I use the metal windows I use a lot of those townhomes. It's a lot of them. It's windows. So if you don't change the window, you're not fixing the problem. You may fix the plywood, the symptom, but you're not fixing the root cause. 00:08:23:14 - 00:08:30:13 Speaker 1 The windows just going to keep leaking. And you can try to pukey in caulk and do all these things. But until you change the window, it's not going to change anything. 00:08:30:18 - 00:08:48:14 Speaker 2 Right? So, we kind of got a little bit ahead of, and in fact, one of the quotes that you just said, it's on your website and, I was going to bring this up, the quote about, the fence, you know, why is your fence, still there after 20 years? I actually made a note of that here in my notes. 00:08:48:16 - 00:09:05:14 Speaker 2 And I was going to mention that because I love that, that quote. And it's just, you know, you know, why is why is a fence or any wood that's outside. Why is that? They're still there 20 years later. It's it's because it dries right. So I made a special note of that one to bring up. Stucco has gotten a bad rap here in Houston. 00:09:05:14 - 00:09:30:18 Speaker 2 And and it's not really the product itself. Very, very rarely is there a problem with the lath or or the or the, the actual stucco layer itself. What's, what's behind that. And you know, you see in drier climates like, you know, Arizona or even, you know, north Texas, west Texas, areas that aren't as humid don't get as much rain as we do here in Houston. 00:09:30:18 - 00:09:38:06 Speaker 2 You see stucco all over the place and there's no problems, you know? Yeah, they never have issues with it. It's because it's it's not saturated all the time. 00:09:38:08 - 00:09:54:08 Speaker 1 Exactly. It's like the three little pigs at the Big Bad Wolf never came. That steakhouse would have made it. You know, you would need this to the house. Had a brick of steakhouse within. Fine. But when you have these things, especially talk about like, climate change and stuff. The directo this year we had barrel this year, like it's raining a lot. 00:09:54:10 - 00:10:13:13 Speaker 1 We're getting not only just rain coming down, we're getting wind driven rain 30 miles an hour. Water is going to find a way. And if we're not doing little things ahead of time and maintaining things, you're going to have problems. And you want to turn around and look at your builder who's going to turn around, look at those stucco guys, what guys will and miss and, you know, things like that. 00:10:13:13 - 00:10:39:03 Speaker 1 And it's just a it's a finger pointing thing where if we take a little bit ahead of time and think about things and do the little things right, your bees right, you know, you got your drainage plan, you got all these preventative measures. You don't have problems. Another thing I like to bring up is, why is it that every other part of the home has a redundancy in the sense of your AC has a drip pan that has not only one drain, but a secondary just in case. 00:10:39:03 - 00:10:39:12 Speaker 2 Right? 00:10:39:12 - 00:10:42:14 Speaker 1 Why is it that your water heater has a drip pan just in case? 00:10:42:14 - 00:10:44:08 Speaker 2 And the temp. Well, yeah, exactly. 00:10:44:10 - 00:11:06:08 Speaker 1 Why does the plumbing drain have a clean out now? Why do we have all these redundancies about when it comes to the exterior house that it's going to get hammered constantly. Why don't we have any redundancies. Yeah, we caulk things. It's good. I had a daughter one time. My houses don't leak. Okay, well, manufacturing, there are variances. And if you build a thousand windows, one of them's going to leak. 00:11:06:10 - 00:11:11:00 Speaker 1 What if you get that one window? Yeah. Right. What if you get that one window. Yeah. 00:11:11:02 - 00:11:22:01 Speaker 2 And can't. And are you going to crawl up there and look at every window that gets installed to make sure that your framer or your window installer got every single detail right when he's installing it. Right. 00:11:22:03 - 00:11:24:01 Speaker 1 Are you water testing all your windows? 00:11:24:02 - 00:11:42:17 Speaker 2 I don't care how good the product itself is. If the guy and it's only as good as there's the guy installing it, right? I mean, so if you're, I hate to say this, but if you're relying on a $13 an hour guy for the success of your company and your long term peace of mind, that's a problem. 00:11:42:17 - 00:11:50:06 Speaker 2 Like, I'm not going to rely on the $13 an hour guy to make sure that he's doing things right. Like, I want to verify that and make sure that make sure it's right. 00:11:50:07 - 00:12:08:01 Speaker 1 What was put redundancies in like for instance, green board. Right. I'm not I'm not opposed to it. Right. I actually like it from, from seaming and taping. I'm cool with all that. But if you don't cork your nail holes and. Well, we only cork the overdriven ones. All right. So you're expecting the guy on the field who's busting his tail. 00:12:08:06 - 00:12:27:14 Speaker 1 It's 100 degrees outside. He's tired. He wants to go home. You know, I get it. I've been there right? So that one he didn't call or the. Now all of a sudden, wall zip comes out, all your warranties voided because you didn't, seal this, overdriven fastener, so, sorry. Warranties voided, which they were going to give you the money for the price of the plywood. 00:12:27:14 - 00:12:40:05 Speaker 1 Anyway, he's not going to anything else, but yeah, that's what I was going to do with my warranty. So but if you're not caulking, doing the redundancy of caulking your nail holes, the what are you really doing? You're expecting a guy to to do what? Yeah, right. 00:12:40:06 - 00:12:59:19 Speaker 2 I think people misunderstand those warranties, too. Like you said, they're going to give you the money to replace the product. If there's a problem with the product, the the the warranty, whether it's, you know, zip or any of these companies. Right. Like their warranty is not going to cover the inside of your house getting ruined. It's not going to pick up the basically the insurance bill for the inside of your house. 00:12:59:19 - 00:13:03:08 Speaker 2 It's going to cover like that product getting replaced. 00:13:03:10 - 00:13:07:06 Speaker 1 Will replace a. But here's a, you know, 50 sheet of plywood. Here you go. Sorry about that. You know good luck. 00:13:07:08 - 00:13:07:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:13:07:23 - 00:13:13:22 Speaker 1 And not that that's mean. It's a good warranty I'm not knocking anybody. But that's any company across the board. That's how they all are. Yeah. 00:13:14:02 - 00:13:20:02 Speaker 2 You know they can't take on the liability for the whole structure. Having having issues right now is that the out of business in a heartbeat. 00:13:20:04 - 00:13:40:15 Speaker 1 I get it. It's like my my warranty for my rain screen's based exactly like all the other industry standards. My competitors you know, it's the same warranty. It's more so if something happens, you know, I'll replace the product a lot of times because someone asked me about that before. What about the warranty? I'm like the the warrant, the rain screen isn't keeping things from leaking. 00:13:40:17 - 00:13:47:08 Speaker 1 It's more so giving you a pathway out. So yeah warranties I'm not a big believer. 00:13:47:10 - 00:14:08:23 Speaker 2 Yeah I mean a system is only as good as it is only as good as its weakest component. So you know the rain screen is part of a system. The stucco finish is part of a system. It's the whole wall assembly that we're talking about. Right. So it's the outer layer, it's the paint, then it's the stucco, then it's the laugh, and then it's the rain screen, and then it's the sheathing, the RBE. 00:14:09:00 - 00:14:26:21 Speaker 2 So it's all these components that work together as part of a system, to, to move bulk water away from the house. It's redundancy. So if the stucco doesn't keep the water out, the rain screens to help a drain, if the rain screen for some reason for for some reason doesn't help a drain, the orb's going to keep it out of that, doesn't keep it out. 00:14:26:21 - 00:14:36:07 Speaker 2 The pilot's going to keep it out. Yeah. So the more layers that we can build in for more redundancy, the better your chances are of, you know, long term performance and keeping water out of the house. 00:14:36:08 - 00:14:38:19 Speaker 1 Oh, exactly. Exactly. 00:14:38:21 - 00:14:57:04 Speaker 2 So I wanted to touch on, you know, we, we kind of have gotten more focused on, on water and, and keeping the wall dry. I just wanted to kind of go back to basics a little bit for people who are listening, because I know we have a lot of builders, contractors, architects listen, but also some homeowners. 00:14:57:06 - 00:15:20:05 Speaker 2 So I do kind of take things back to kind of simple explanations to start with. So stucco talk about like what is a typical stucco system like. So let's just start with the plywood and just start with the plywood sheathing. Talk about what what the layers are from there on out. And then what what is a typical stucco, you know, build up made of? 00:15:20:06 - 00:15:35:19 Speaker 1 Okay. So like a typical circle system, when we get to the wall, the builder is going to frame everything out with the plywood. That way they use their next layer would be the weather resistant barrier. So we call that the RBB. So what the barrier will go up from there. Usually that's when the stucco will start. 00:15:35:21 - 00:15:53:11 Speaker 1 So typically the stucco guy will install the rain screen. And then you're supposed to have two layers of RHB behind your stucco. I personally put our first layer as my primary. Then I put my rain screen, and then I put my second layer over that. And then on top of that, that's when we start our lap. 00:15:53:13 - 00:16:20:12 Speaker 2 And so it's so in a I'll show you a typical wall assembly. So whether that so if you're using a product like zip or Tam one's got a product that now has a built in Debbie, but you know, so either a sheathing with an integrated barb or you've got like a plywood or let's be with a, you know, whether it's Tyvek, Tamlyn, wrap, whatever the strap is. 00:16:20:12 - 00:16:25:10 Speaker 2 Right. That's your primary Debbie. Right? Correct. Then the rain screen. 00:16:25:11 - 00:16:26:10 Speaker 1 Then the rain screen. And then. 00:16:26:10 - 00:16:29:02 Speaker 2 What's your what's typically your next layer. 00:16:29:06 - 00:16:47:02 Speaker 1 My next layer. So I'll do my second secondary because you're supposed to have two. So I put a secondary barb which is usually just black fell over that. And then we'll do our laugh. So once we get our lab done we go through our lab inspections. And a lot of our builders nowadays get a third party stucco inspection to inspect my lab and not only the city. 00:16:47:07 - 00:16:48:10 Speaker 1 So I'm a big proponent of. 00:16:48:15 - 00:16:48:23 Speaker 2 Oh yeah. 00:16:48:23 - 00:17:06:07 Speaker 1 You know, it helps me. It keeps me on my game. If I miss something and my guys miss something, they call it out. We fix it, we move forward from there. We go through our scratch coat, then we do our brown coat and then your finished coat. Now, depending on what type of finish we may be putting on, we may add sweet coats. 00:17:06:09 - 00:17:24:02 Speaker 1 Another thing we like to offer is called our precision stucco shield. Also known as a, stucco cracked shield. And what that is is layer fiberglass mesh and base coat. And it goes over the brown coat. And then you put your finished coat on top of that. And what that does is drastically reduce the amount of cracks drastically. 00:17:24:06 - 00:17:43:02 Speaker 1 I mean, you can take out all the expansion joint or control joints in a stucco home, put the precision stucco shield over, and even with no control joints, the amount of cracking is very minimal. Now we have a a waiver that, you know, the homeowner has to sign because they don't want to see expansion joints. Like, that's cool. 00:17:43:02 - 00:18:04:09 Speaker 1 All right. We're going to have to do the upgrade cost of doing the precision stucco shield. And then also we have this waiver just highlighting the fact that you understand the pros and the cons. And we we draw up our waivers, not so much where Bruce is no longer liable and, you know, courtesies we're not liable. It's more so informed the customer of the pros and the cons and making sure they're aware. 00:18:04:12 - 00:18:05:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:18:05:03 - 00:18:26:01 Speaker 2 You're aware that this may get some cracks. Yeah. You know it's it's just like pouring a concrete I mean it's a different process. Right. But it's like pouring concrete driveway like you, you say, you know, we tell people there's two truths about concrete. It's hard and it's going to crack. Right. And so whether it's a driveway or whether it's stucco, eventually there's going to be some cracks somewhere. 00:18:26:01 - 00:18:30:03 Speaker 2 It's just the nature of the product. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just the nature of the product. 00:18:30:05 - 00:18:46:04 Speaker 1 It's to be expected. Like people ask me, what was stucco supposed to crack on my walls? Stucco, concrete, concrete cracks right now we do a lot of things to prevent it. They prevent that. But at the end of the day, that's just the nature of the product. Now, if you want, if you're if you're terrified of cracks, let's do the precision stucco shield. 00:18:46:06 - 00:19:01:07 Speaker 1 Put this layer base coat and mesh and even on like an inner colored house that's really prone to cracking. The amount of cracks is very minimal, like it's I could send you by some houses that have no expansion joints that are wood framed, and you might find 1 or 2 cracks on. 00:19:01:09 - 00:19:16:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, but at the end of the day you're still relying on the structure not moving. You know, the foundation shifts, the structure shifts, it's going to crack. Just like a again in your driveway. If the soil shifts, you're going to get cracks in the concrete. So the finished the finished product is only as good as what's underneath it. 00:19:16:18 - 00:19:16:23 Speaker 2 No. 00:19:16:23 - 00:19:28:05 Speaker 1 Exactly. I mean, we are a team and we're the only strong, the weakest link. So if you get one bad link, bad flashing, bad foundation, you know, bad framing and things are moving well, you know, it is what it is. 00:19:28:05 - 00:19:50:02 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, even, even sometimes with the good foundation stuff. Yeah. In an area that's got very expensive soils and all that kind of stuff, you know, there's and there's going to be some movement to some degree, you know. So yeah, it's, it's, it's you're always relying on, on what, that, what that base layer is again, if that base layers expansive soil, you're at the mercy of that. 00:19:50:03 - 00:20:05:02 Speaker 1 Well, one thing I learned last year was all the, when it didn't rain for, you know, this year rained every day, you know. Well, last year it didn't rain for, what, a month? Two months. All the soil's cracking and everything's moving and you're getting all these stresses on these houses like it was, it was pretty wild to see that and see how it related to the walls. 00:20:05:02 - 00:20:12:03 Speaker 1 I mean brick mortar joints cracking. Yeah. Things that you were seeing that typically you wouldn't see all of a sudden you're like, well what's going on. Yeah. 00:20:12:05 - 00:20:38:21 Speaker 2 So well and that kind of goes back to a homeowner maintenance type thing. And this is something that people don't always think about. And we've talked about this in the past on the podcast. Suze, you know, you have to maintain a consistent moisture level around your foundation, you know, through. Yeah, watering or drainage or whatever, but you need to make sure that that soil isn't constantly expanding and contracting against and right underneath your foundation. 00:20:38:23 - 00:21:08:00 Speaker 2 Otherwise that's going to contribute to movement. So, it's just another maintenance item. So standard stucco system. We talked about what that is. I also wanted to touch on ethos and what the difference, you know, so kind of defining again defining what ethos is how that's different than a traditional stucco system. And then also want to kind of want to get into, you know, why that's had a really bad rap over the last 30 years especially. 00:21:08:01 - 00:21:12:20 Speaker 2 And if that's changed any and if it's worth another look these days. So what's ethos. 00:21:12:20 - 00:21:37:07 Speaker 1 So ethos is an acronym for Exterior Insulated Finish System. It consists of you still have the same orb and you would have either. And adhered layer of EPS foam or mechanically fashioned layer of foam. It just depends on the system you're doing and the orb. And then from there you do a base layer of that base coat and mesh over that, and then your finished coat. 00:21:37:09 - 00:22:00:08 Speaker 1 I think a lot of what I was giving Eve was a bad rap is going back to water. They were getting these houses that things weren't draining. They didn't realize how much water actually got behind these walls. They weren't caulking things right. They weren't putting the right flashing. And it's even less forgiving than stucco was. Stucco has more of a built in drainage plain with the two layers of the orb, whereas the F is it was just there was no true. 00:22:00:13 - 00:22:01:06 Speaker 2 Fashion to the. 00:22:01:12 - 00:22:16:09 Speaker 1 AC, to the house. And if when they put the adhesives on, if they don't, you know, put it on. Right. Like if this is a very technical, very, very technical, we haven't in all my years we haven't done a job of. So we've taken a lot of FS off and replaced it, which is hard coat, but we haven't done a F job. 00:22:16:09 - 00:22:33:20 Speaker 1 Now I've taken the F is class F is doing right just to learn and understand more that things. And there are a couple of guys that I know that do a lot of it, and they do a good job, but it's one of those things where it's very, very technical. Now, we do do use a lot of F trim on a traditional hard ghost, house. 00:22:33:22 - 00:22:39:18 Speaker 1 So if you want to do like a decorative band, just make it look a little bit better, like. 00:22:39:20 - 00:22:40:19 Speaker 2 Window trim. 00:22:40:19 - 00:22:55:20 Speaker 1 Or like a middle band, something like that. Now we can put that on top of a hard coat. My drainage plane, everything behind it stays the same. And we're just attaching something like that. Yeah, I try to shy away from those. Unless, like a cornice, man, because they tend to get damaged. They get nicked, they get dented soft. 00:22:55:20 - 00:23:08:08 Speaker 1 They're salt. Yeah. They're soft. I mean, they're they're hard, but they're soft. I mean, if you punch it, you're going to dent it. Right? Versus a cornice band. That's a pie. I'm not worried about it. But if you want to do a decorative base band down low, I would say no, let's not do that. A lot of effort. 00:23:08:08 - 00:23:13:02 Speaker 1 Let's, you know, do that cast on. So let's be a little bit more durable. It's going to hold up to the test of time. 00:23:13:04 - 00:23:27:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. So back in the you know, back in the 80s and 90s I guess when if this was a new product. Well, you know, like a lot of things when it first comes in the market, it gets push. This is this is the greatest new thing. And so it was done a lot in the 80s and 90s. 00:23:27:20 - 00:23:41:19 Speaker 2 And I'm thinking about here where where we are in Bellaire and Houston. It was put on a lot of new construction and I know a lot of builders got sued, lost their butts over having to have an ethos on their houses back then. 00:23:41:20 - 00:23:56:19 Speaker 1 I think my dad might have done a couple back in the day, but it was one of those things was like, what we're doing is not broke. We're not doing that. So he he didn't really do it. But I've seen nowadays, rather than the efforts, there's been a push of the, AC panels, the area to have concrete panels to. 00:23:56:21 - 00:24:11:03 Speaker 1 We're actually doing a house with one right now. Pretty cool stuff. Same thing. I put the rain screen on and put those panels on and. Yeah, I'm not opposed to those now. It's not cheaper than stucco. You know, they were trying to make it cheaper, but it's just not, you know, I. 00:24:11:03 - 00:24:14:14 Speaker 2 Do the right way. Are you using the the like on panels. 00:24:14:19 - 00:24:20:19 Speaker 1 Is not I didn't get it from like con I got it from a different company. But yeah I know our role well and yeah those guys. 00:24:20:19 - 00:24:37:06 Speaker 2 So I think the AC panels are fantastic. They provide a lot of, sound insulation to one of the things is sold me on it at a builder show. I was out here a year or two ago. They had a, I don't know, a box, like a two foot square box made look a thing. Yeah. Made. 00:24:37:08 - 00:24:48:11 Speaker 2 Made from the AC panels. And they had a stereo inside a blasting music. And when they put the lid on that box, you couldn't hear anything. It was quiet. Yeah. 00:24:48:12 - 00:24:55:01 Speaker 1 You know, use it on the inside. Yeah. You know, I got a playroom here and you got your bedroom right there. Like, put a wall of that stuff up. You know, I could hear anything. 00:24:55:01 - 00:25:16:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, but just imagine having, you know, that wrapping all around your house and having some triple pane windows. I mean, that's going to be really quiet house, but also it creates a basically a concrete mass wall around the house. That's going to give structural integrity. It's going to give a good insulation value. You know, it's it's a really good product. 00:25:16:21 - 00:25:34:01 Speaker 1 No, I like it, but it just goes back to certain houses require a certain type of products to be used. You know, I don't think that product's meant for your everyday run of the mill semi-custom home. Right? You know, I don't see a lot of semi-custom builders, you know, going that because it's not you can you're not going to do it cheaper. 00:25:34:03 - 00:25:58:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. Per se. I think one of the, one of the sales pitches maybe in again in drier climates, I'm thinking like South Texas, West Texas is where I've heard them pushing. It is, is that AC can basically replace the, sheathing also. Yeah, they, they put their house wraps straight to the studs. They put the, the AC panels straight to the studs on top of the tub, and then they float it and finish it. 00:25:58:14 - 00:26:00:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. So like they're, they're saving a step. 00:26:00:15 - 00:26:18:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. So like Arizona where you're not getting any water. More for it here in Houston where you know water is going to get back there and your only protection is going to be a sheet of Tyvek or Tamlin dream house for house wrapper type or, no, no thank you. Just because a lot of it's windows, it's things that are already behind everything. 00:26:18:08 - 00:26:24:14 Speaker 1 It's not going through the stucco. It's something that's already back there. Like the window, the flashing. I would want to risk it. 00:26:24:16 - 00:26:50:19 Speaker 2 I was blown away. I was out in Arizona, here a few weeks ago for a conference, and I went and toured some job sites out there, and I was blown away that a lot of the new construction production homes out there, not just production homes, actually even like higher end, like semi-custom custom stuff, they were putting any sheathing on, they were wrapping the studs with the and they were putting the siding or whatever, straight to the WRP with no sheathing on the house. 00:26:50:21 - 00:27:03:23 Speaker 2 And I asked them why. And they're like, why spend the money? We, we don't get the they don't get the rain. And they were. And there's spray and spray foam insulation to the backside of the, of the Tyvek and is going on down the road. You know, I was I was shocked. 00:27:04:01 - 00:27:12:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, just just going back to I guess if it never rains then what's the worst that can happen? But structurally, I guess if the engineer approves it. 00:27:12:12 - 00:27:31:23 Speaker 2 Well, they also don't have the wind loads that we do. There's no seismic, considerations. They don't really do any shear walls. They're hardly either. So it was really interesting. But they were saying that they consider, sheathing to be an upgrade. So, like, on a high end custom home, they'll advertise. Oh, yeah, we do sheathing on our custom homes. 00:27:31:23 - 00:27:33:02 Speaker 2 It's like an upgrade. 00:27:33:02 - 00:27:35:22 Speaker 1 We're going to give you top grade OSB as an upgrade. 00:27:36:00 - 00:27:46:10 Speaker 2 Well, I guess that's why some of their construction costs are lower in those areas too, because they're saving, I don't know, $20,000 for the sheathing plus the labor to put it up. And there, you know, it's crazy. 00:27:46:10 - 00:27:49:02 Speaker 1 I never knew that. That's crazy. 00:27:49:04 - 00:28:08:04 Speaker 2 So cast stone and whether it's cast stone or, thin veneer brick, stone veneer, those products are still going over the top of your, your base coat. So you're still starting the system just like you do your stucco. Right. And then these products are basically getting stuck. 00:28:08:04 - 00:28:09:04 Speaker 1 Stuck on. Yeah. So to. 00:28:09:04 - 00:28:10:06 Speaker 2 The outside, what we do. 00:28:10:06 - 00:28:27:16 Speaker 1 Do though is we do take any thin veneer. We put it on top of the brown coat so we don't stop at the scratch coat. We go all the way to brown coat. And that's because, you know, the Texas A&M Players Association says you need to have 1 or 2 material behind it, whatever. You're thin setting. So if we got three quarters of stucco and a quarter two thinset, we got a one inch. 00:28:27:18 - 00:28:46:11 Speaker 1 So but yeah, all that stuff is applied now, the thin break and stuff. We're just then setting it, now our cast on panels or limestone panels, we're going to mechanically as well. So we're gonna have stainless steel clip, stainless steel screws, pins, you know, everything's stainless because we use any type of galvanized, it's going to corrode. 00:28:46:11 - 00:29:04:06 Speaker 1 And when it corrodes and swells up, it's going to pop it. Yeah. So we've had houses in the past and it's just things you've just learned over the years. I was actually in Madrid this weekend and I, I have a picture of a, a fastener of where it was clearly galvanized and swelled and popped the limestone panel. 00:29:04:08 - 00:29:08:13 Speaker 1 So it's just one of those things. So now we only use everything's stainless. 00:29:08:15 - 00:29:20:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's, that's something that I think a lot of the, the cheaper guys that I've seen don't, don't think through or they or they don't, they don't do that. They're just, just grab the cheapest box fasteners and shoot it up. 00:29:20:08 - 00:29:38:01 Speaker 1 Oh we have one one guy there. Oh you know, you you're too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like okay that's fine. Well you know, walk the house afterwards, you know, how's the other guys. Well you know starting they, you know, they're, they're installing stuff and they were installing cast on with deck screws, a stone hole, countersink and it in there. 00:29:38:01 - 00:29:56:06 Speaker 1 And that's how they were installing it. And I was like, man, we'll you know, those clips, every one of those clips are like $2 apiece. And, you know, every one of those screws is like $0.50. And all these Chile, you know, the fasteners we use, they're stainless and all these things add up. You know, when we when I go to jobs, I tell people, go on vacation because, you know, things are going to be done right. 00:29:56:08 - 00:30:03:03 Speaker 1 Because it's little things like that where we could cut a corner, you know, but it's just not worth it. 00:30:03:05 - 00:30:28:03 Speaker 2 So we've talked about, you know, whether it's, you know, stucco ethos, all these products, as we said at the beginning, it's all about what's behind it. And is it going to drain? So it's not really the product that's in the finished product. That's an issue. It's it's how's it how's it going to drain? And again, you've you've brought your own rain screen or you've developed your own rain screen. 00:30:28:03 - 00:30:34:11 Speaker 2 In fact, you brought a sample of it. Why don't you kind of hold it up to this, this camera here. This is kind of a cool little sample you brought. 00:30:34:13 - 00:30:53:00 Speaker 1 To my fancy little samples, just so you can see how quickly the water gets through. So imagine that in a wall and you can see the thickness of it, which I got, demonic caulking around the edge. You keep these in your truck after a week or two because it gets so hot. The the water evaporates really through the caulking. 00:30:53:02 - 00:31:03:20 Speaker 1 Well, the caulking still intact. No holes all the way around, but they'll slowly deplete. So this one, I had to get it straight from my office. I never would have thought that would have happened, but it's vapor. Permeable water is definitely going through there. 00:31:03:20 - 00:31:27:10 Speaker 2 Wow. That's funny. So, one of the things that it's important to look for in rain screen that I love about this one is it it has to have an A thickness to it and a substance to it where it's not going to be compressible. Some of the ones that are on the market or just barely even some tiny little raised ridges. 00:31:27:14 - 00:31:31:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's, it's like barely thicker than the Derby itself. 00:31:32:00 - 00:31:32:22 Speaker 1 Exactly. 00:31:33:00 - 00:31:35:11 Speaker 2 I love that this product. Okay. How thick is that? 00:31:35:11 - 00:31:36:23 Speaker 1 This is a six millimeter. 00:31:36:23 - 00:31:37:14 Speaker 2 Six millimeter. 00:31:37:17 - 00:31:49:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I have a six millimeter, and I have a ten millimeter. Yeah. And I ten millimeter. You can use it. Is it better? Yeah. Does it give you a bigger gap? Yeah. Six millimeter, in my experience, is more than enough. Yeah. It's gonna be the best bang for your buck. 00:31:50:01 - 00:32:10:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. I love this product. You know, there's there's several good ones that have have really, exploded in the market over the last few years. We've had Tamblyn on their on here talking about their the 6.1 rain screen, whether it's this or the Tamron product or whatever. Just make sure that it's non non compressible now. 00:32:10:17 - 00:32:22:14 Speaker 1 So ours is 95% non compressible. The lens is there's is like I've talked to Miguel is awesome. Yeah. But theirs is a true non compressible. They have the little marshmallow. Things are has 95% non compressive. Yeah. 00:32:22:16 - 00:32:40:18 Speaker 2 So so it's just important to make sure that when that gets on there and and they go on there and staple the staple the lath on top of it and start putting everything on there. That's not going to get mash flat which defeats the purpose. Right. So it's got to be something that's substantial enough that even after you get all those layers on it, you know the water is going to continue to flow through it. 00:32:40:18 - 00:32:46:19 Speaker 2 So I, I love that little demo. You should give one of those to like every builder that you work with. 00:32:46:19 - 00:32:55:02 Speaker 1 And yeah, for a while there I was keeping them all my trip. Like I said, they all evaporated. So I had to add to make all these new ones and yeah, that's a whole nother video. 00:32:55:04 - 00:32:57:15 Speaker 2 You gotta find some different kind of tape or talking to. 00:32:57:20 - 00:33:04:04 Speaker 1 Some, I just didn't. I never would have thought that the caulking the water would evaporate out, but it because you know what it did. 00:33:04:09 - 00:33:22:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I mean like, you could just look at this and say, yeah, but this is going to drain water. And then you can look at some of the thinner products and say, or just kind of think through it, you know, just look at the layers. Is this water or do I feel confident the water is really going to pass through this and not pass through it? 00:33:22:19 - 00:33:29:22 Speaker 2 You know it over time, but is the water going to quickly pass through it? You know, because again, you want it to get out of there quickly. You want to sit there and. 00:33:29:22 - 00:33:45:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, well, because the longer the water stays in the wall, the more likelihood it's going to find a pinhole. All I need is a little pinhole to get through there. And as it stays. And the crazy part thing too is as a water to sit against a wall and it's sitting around that nail will now it's going to start sucking. 00:33:45:05 - 00:34:07:04 Speaker 1 And it's kind of like when you if you have a little puddle of water here and you take your finger and you draw it, what was that water do? It travels and falls with it. Yeah. So once cavalry actually actually once it has a pair. Well now it's streaming in there so that if we have a nice capillary break like this and a true drainage cavity, the water just gets out the system that much quicker and it doesn't have the time to find the little pinholes. 00:34:07:05 - 00:34:07:20 Speaker 1 Just gone. 00:34:07:22 - 00:34:29:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, right. I don't like to rely on products that say they're self-healing either. I mean, there are some stuff. It's it's engineered to where when you put a fastener through it, it's going to hold that fastener and it's, it's going to seal around it. But like, you should always treat every surface as even if it says itself sealing, pretend it's not going to be right. 00:34:29:19 - 00:34:30:22 Speaker 1 You're going back to be done and see. 00:34:31:01 - 00:34:56:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. How's that water going to get out of there? Don't rely on on every product being manufactured to where it's going to self-heal. It's going to drain because what's happened, you know, again what happens if that fasteners overdriven, you know, the self-healing is only if that fastener head stops, you know, against the outer part of the debris. Once it penetrates that and you've got exposed an inner core of the OSB or whatever, you know, the self-healing is out the window. 00:34:56:11 - 00:34:59:10 Speaker 1 It's gone. Yeah, I completely agree with it. 00:34:59:12 - 00:35:21:23 Speaker 2 It's it's really interesting to me. Like, it seems like over the last, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, like there have been so many more products like this, so many more water management products that have really come onto the market. It just seems like the the industry has really recognized that there's a demand for this stuff that, that people want to build better houses. 00:35:21:23 - 00:35:41:07 Speaker 2 People want to keep water out. And when I first started in, in, in this business 20 years ago, I know some of the stuff existed, but it just there weren't as many options and it wasn't being as widely used, like, yeah, like I couldn't get a stucco guy 20 years ago who in who knew what this was or wanted to use it, you. 00:35:41:07 - 00:35:58:04 Speaker 1 Know, that's one like I don't want to do that. You know, the best thing I like, well, I've been doing this 20 years. I wanted to do that. And I was like, well, you know, when I first start with my dad, we're real big on, like, flashing stuff. Let's first keep the water out, flash, cool everything, then have the see if water gets in there. 00:35:58:04 - 00:36:16:01 Speaker 1 But a lot of times I'd be talking to people like, hey man, you're missing your kick out. Flashing, oh, that's not a big deal. I don't need that. I'm like, no, no, like you need to put that in. I've been doing this, you know, 30 years. I don't need you. Tell me. So then you know me. When I first started, I had to call my dad, like dad, he's missing is you don't want to do this. 00:36:16:01 - 00:36:33:22 Speaker 1 And he had calm, and then they fix it. But now. Now everybody's starting to catch on. Now you got a lot more roofers. They're putting kick out, flashing and they're putting diverter flashing. You know back in the day we didn't know we needed it until the industry had all these issues. And they realize going back to like the stucco pocalypse in Canada, they didn't think they needed Rainmaker until they realized, you know what? 00:36:33:22 - 00:36:48:18 Speaker 1 This we need a gap to let this water out. Yeah. It's just it's I relate it back to medical science. If you go back, you know, before penicillin, you know, there were some bad things going around. Then you get penicillin. You know, things change and progress over the years, and it's just that much better. Lord knows where it will be. 00:36:48:18 - 00:36:50:21 Speaker 1 And, you know, 20, 30 years from now. 00:36:50:23 - 00:36:51:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:36:51:13 - 00:36:52:02 Speaker 1 So. 00:36:52:04 - 00:37:15:00 Speaker 2 You know, you're again and we said this earlier, you're only as good as your weakest component and your and your worst subcontractor. I've I've got a house right now. And, I hate to admit this, but we, we did a great waterproofing job. Great stucco job. I've. I've. I feel super great about the the the exterior of this house. 00:37:15:02 - 00:37:34:06 Speaker 2 Good roofer. Good flashings. Good parapet caps. It's a it's a flat roof. Modern house. And we're almost to the point of the homeowner moving in. And we have a water leak and the wood floors get ruined in the house. This just happened during the hurricane here a few a few weeks ago. And I'm like, how did water get in this house? 00:37:34:06 - 00:38:01:14 Speaker 2 We spent so much time detailing this thing and, and so we start poking around trying to figure out where this water came from. And one subcontractor toward the end of the project, when they were trimming out a, balcony on the fourth, fourth floor of the house, tiny little hole where, they were they were installing, countertop material around an outdoor fireplace. 00:38:01:14 - 00:38:25:10 Speaker 2 Okay. Where the gas valve comes through the countertop material on the outdoor fireplace. They didn't they didn't get their panel on perfectly square, and the trim ring didn't fit tight to it, to the to the material. And there's a little gap. Yeah. Around that, around that, that gas valve. And in the hurricane, water came in there. 00:38:25:10 - 00:38:29:13 Speaker 2 Water found a way and got all the way down inside the house and ruined all the hardwood floors. 00:38:29:16 - 00:38:32:17 Speaker 1 And it's crazy because it doesn't take much. Yeah. So really doesn't. 00:38:32:17 - 00:38:52:11 Speaker 2 So we spent all this time detailing waterproofing this house. But again, you're only as good as your, as your weakest subcontractor. And honestly, that's, you know I I'll put that out back on us. We didn't go back and look at you know, did he get that panel on perfectly straight and was it corked and all this other kind of stuff? 00:38:52:13 - 00:39:00:05 Speaker 2 And sure enough, what the water found the one weak spot in the entire system. And it was a $15,000 mistake. 00:39:00:05 - 00:39:05:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. And those are the ones you definitely learn from. And if you don't learn from, well, you're not gonna be in business long. 00:39:05:09 - 00:39:12:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I talk about all the stuff all the time and then, you know, oops. We had we had an oopsie on one of our projects. So it happens, you know. 00:39:12:16 - 00:39:27:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. We've all been there with all the good ones I've learned the bad ones, the ones that didn't learn, you know, the good ones have either been sued or had a big mistake like that, and they realize, like, okay, well, I need to have this other redundancy or have something else in place to make sure something like this doesn't happen. 00:39:27:05 - 00:39:27:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:39:27:20 - 00:39:38:08 Speaker 2 So why don't you know, why don't all stucco companies insist on using a product like this? And why don't all builders insist on using products like this? 00:39:38:08 - 00:39:50:18 Speaker 1 So my dad always says it's either you don't know or you don't care. And I don't think it's a lot of people don't care. They may just not know. Now, there are handful out there. We can both agree that they just don't care. Right? I don't care, you know, I'm gonna collect my check. 00:39:50:18 - 00:39:52:05 Speaker 2 How fast and cheap can I get it done? 00:39:52:05 - 00:40:10:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm gonna get it done. You're gonna pay me. I hope there's a problem. Like Michael said on a different one, I'll change my number of changes. Company names. You know, they were flags, but I just think they just don't know yet. So that's been my job. That I've kind of taken it upon myself is to try to educate builders like, hey, this is something we can do to prevent all these issues. 00:40:10:17 - 00:40:27:00 Speaker 1 Realtors, I tell them all the time, oh, I don't like stucco. No, it's not, it's not stucco. You know, there's things we can do ahead of time to prevent these things that prevent them, but help with them. So we're not getting the water on the inside. Things are allowed to drain and dry. There's things we can do, but it's more so getting educating everybody. 00:40:27:00 - 00:40:48:04 Speaker 1 I think the end consumer, the homeowners don't really realize it. And until they realize it, the builders per se wouldn't want to do it. But from the builders perspective, for me to be like this is insurance, you can't buy, insurance doesn't cover this. There's all the redundancy we talked about before. This is it for the exterior of your house, where you know it's going to get hammered every single day. 00:40:48:06 - 00:40:58:23 Speaker 1 You know, why would you not want to do that on a $2 million house. We're talking about maybe $5,000, $10,000. Why why would you not want to take that that insurance. Right. 00:40:58:23 - 00:41:01:21 Speaker 2 It's a fraction of a percent on your overall budget. 00:41:02:00 - 00:41:08:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, to to to make sure thing you don't have this issue later on. Yeah. Now why would you want to do it. 00:41:08:06 - 00:41:31:11 Speaker 2 It's funny I in dealing with architects and talking about, what what know what kind of products are going to go on the outsides of houses that are designing stucco was always thrown out there as, like the cheaper option for some reason. Which, which which blows my mind there. Like, I think in a lot of, designers, architects minds, stucco is still like $6 a square foot, you know? 00:41:31:13 - 00:41:53:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. And they're like, oh, well, stucco was like, you know, 6 or $8 a square foot, but, you know, doing brick, you know, brick costs, you know, $12 a square foot and whatever. And they think of stucco being the cheaper alternative. Whereas, I mean, like anything, it depends on what you're comparing. Like, are there some cheap bricks? 00:41:53:07 - 00:42:05:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. Are there some expensive bricks. Yeah. Yeah. But with stucco I mean, to, to do it right, to have a good rain screen system, to have a good competent contractor doing it. It's not always the cheapest option. 00:42:05:16 - 00:42:07:20 Speaker 1 No. Especially depending on the finish as well. Yeah. 00:42:07:20 - 00:42:11:14 Speaker 2 And if you're paying six bucks a foot, you're probably not getting. 00:42:11:18 - 00:42:12:07 Speaker 1 Oh no. 00:42:12:10 - 00:42:13:13 Speaker 2 This type of product. 00:42:13:17 - 00:42:25:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. No you're getting you're not getting control joints. You know you're getting I'm not talking bad about anybody, but it's just you just get what you pay for. Yeah, it is what it is. 00:42:25:02 - 00:42:51:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think I think that until until, you know, but the design community and I'm not making a blanket statement because there's a lot of, a lot of them that do things through this. But I hear these comments and tell the design community, I think, looks at stucco as being on the same level as doing, you know, a good quality brick exterior. 00:42:51:07 - 00:43:25:06 Speaker 2 It's going to kind of keep getting pushed as the cheaper alternative. And so the builders then in turn, are going to feel the pressure to go with a cheap contractor, because that's what the client's expecting. Yeah. That's what the architects expecting. So we got to find somebody to do this for 6 or 8 bucks a foot, you know, whereas, you know, in the design phase, you know, if if the architect is specifying, we're going to do, you know, a good rain screen, and they're the architect is educating the client that this is a premium product, not not a budget product. 00:43:25:09 - 00:43:26:08 Speaker 1 Setting those expectations. 00:43:26:08 - 00:43:44:17 Speaker 2 Early. Yeah. So actions by the architect, by the builder. And so if we're if we're going to do this, if we're going to use this system, we're going to do it the right way. It's going to perform for, you know, long term and sell it that way up front. Until we do that, you know, you're going to keep seeing people drift toward the low end of the price spectrum. 00:43:44:17 - 00:44:02:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I completely agree. But I've even gotten on board a couple of, of the bigger production semi-custom guys where they're starting to use it as well. Now they're slowly starting to implement it, not on all their houses, but more on the build on your lot houses. So clearly they're seeing the value of it not only from a, it's in the code. 00:44:02:13 - 00:44:17:07 Speaker 1 You got to do it, you got to have a drainage provision. But it's more so like hey this is going to be something that's going to not only provide us with a little bit of insurance, but help this house perform the way it was meant to perform. Yeah, build to our standards. And that's why I keep telling people raise let's let's raise the standard. 00:44:17:09 - 00:44:32:00 Speaker 1 Why are we building to code? You know, entry level, not even entry level. Just the bare minimum. Like, let's raise the standard and do things that are going to last. I tell people, are you building a house for ten years and you build a hundred year house? Because back in the day we built thousand year houses, right? Yeah. 00:44:32:00 - 00:44:41:00 Speaker 1 And nowadays we build houses. The last, the last ten years, 15 years, we probably had the demo and build a new one. Now what? What standard are you. Yeah. So, I. 00:44:41:00 - 00:44:46:00 Speaker 2 Mean, we're, we're tearing down houses that were built in the 1980s now in this area, you know. 00:44:46:01 - 00:45:02:07 Speaker 1 I mean, you know what? But then again, I guess it goes in the where you want to live and that's a whole nother ballgame. But still, I try to build things that I know I don't like callbacks. Yeah. So let's let's do things so we don't get callbacks because callbacks is money out of our pockets. And we both don't want that. 00:45:02:09 - 00:45:04:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Let's just do things the right way. 00:45:04:04 - 00:45:37:12 Speaker 2 I wanted to touch on real quick. You know, one of the things that we are starting to see more of is continuous exterior insulation on houses. And some of the products like, the zip are product, Tamlin has a new, MgO board with a, polyfoam panel built onto the back of it. Now that we just, saw rolled out recently, but exterior, continuous insulation is getting to be more and more popular, as it should. 00:45:37:14 - 00:45:49:03 Speaker 2 And if it's if if that insulation panel is on the inside of the sheathing, that's one thing, because they're already using longer fasteners to put that through. You know, it's an that's a. 00:45:49:03 - 00:45:52:17 Speaker 1 Big key is you got to get the into the studs. You got to get those long fast. Yeah. 00:45:52:21 - 00:46:17:16 Speaker 2 So that that's that's easier. But if you have you know, some builders are doing a foam board on the outside of their, of their plywood. So from your perspective, doing stucco, you know, stone, what do you have to do different when you're putting your, your stuff on top of an exterior foam insulation? 00:46:17:16 - 00:46:37:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the biggest thing is going to be the fasteners, whether it's behind the plywood or on top of the plywood, your fasteners are going to have to carry that load. Now if you're putting the stock, the insulation on the exterior of the plywood, your fasteners are definitely gonna have to carry a lot more that load, because you have a lot more just floating out. 00:46:37:04 - 00:46:37:17 Speaker 1 Insulation. 00:46:37:17 - 00:46:41:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, that your foam board has no strength. No, it's just insulation and. 00:46:41:14 - 00:46:55:02 Speaker 1 A half inch ones. I'm not. Those aren't the ones I'm too worried about. I'm talking like when you start getting to like, the three four, anything bigger than that. And it's just like, well, but every the those are gonna have to be they're not gonna be able to be stapled and have to screw them all with washers. 00:46:55:04 - 00:47:12:05 Speaker 1 So your labor price for your life, it's going to go up. But they have a table and I'd have to look it up and find it. But they have a table of the size of fastener to use depending on the the thickness of your insulation on the exterior, because that is becoming a more prevalent thing at our Texas Lab and Plasma Association convention. 00:47:12:05 - 00:47:23:17 Speaker 1 They actually talked about it this year. As far as what those sizes are. They gave us the table and listed everything. But you definitely have to increase because it's got to be able to just hold the weight of all that. 00:47:23:18 - 00:47:34:09 Speaker 2 But yeah, yeah. Because essentially that you've got a layer of concrete or stone or whatever that's now floating off of your, your, sheathing, you know, anywhere from a half inch to a couple inches. 00:47:34:11 - 00:47:49:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So like I said, once you get it, get going past an inch, that's when I'm like, alright, well we, we need to look at this because it's not an engineering thing, but it's almost like an engineering thing. Yeah. You know if we got past 2 to 3in, then it needs to be engineered to support all that. 00:47:49:09 - 00:47:53:18 Speaker 1 What's like I said, I think the top AK has a table that outlines what you use. 00:47:53:20 - 00:47:58:06 Speaker 2 And it may not, like fall off the house, but it might sag. And when it sags, it causes cracks. 00:47:58:06 - 00:48:01:11 Speaker 1 Exactly. So cracks whatever trace and all the. Yep. All the above. 00:48:01:16 - 00:48:20:19 Speaker 2 So, let's touch on maintenance a little bit and, you know, like any other product, like, like everything in your home, there's regular inspections and maintenance that need to be done over stucco to make sure that people are protecting their investment. You know, there aren't very many things in our houses that are just set it and forget it type things. 00:48:20:20 - 00:48:32:15 Speaker 2 You know, I've done several episodes just on home maintenance here. What kind of ongoing maintenance should people be doing when it comes to stucco and stone veneers? 00:48:32:17 - 00:48:53:19 Speaker 1 So I would say with any exterior cladding, you need to be regularly maintaining your caulking, your sealants. So we say every 5 or 7 years you need to redo your sealants and then repaint the house because the UV light is going to break everything out, break everything down from the outside in. So the guts are usually pretty good, but once it starts getting brittle and cracking, well, I was a little, like you said, a little bit of water to get inside. 00:48:53:21 - 00:49:09:13 Speaker 1 Well, that's when you're going to see a lot of your problems. So every 5 to 7 years we say, like I said, recall, repaint. But the ceilings are the things you need to watch the most. But it's like changing your oil in your car. You know, some people, you know, do the dealerships as every 3000 I do mine every 5000. 00:49:09:15 - 00:49:22:19 Speaker 1 Some people wait till the light comes on, which maybe 10,000 miles? Some people, they just don't do it. You start hearing it clanking, they're like, oh, I should probably get that checked out, you know? So I mean, if you aren't doing the things that, you know, need, you know, you need to be doing well, you're probably going to have an issue. 00:49:22:22 - 00:49:40:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. If you're regularly maintaining your sealants and taking care of things. Stucco is meant to last a long time. You know, I have a I had a buddy that they said they do apartments, right? And they said, well, yeah, we have, stucco. We're worried about it because we have to do, resurface the whole, apartment complex. 00:49:40:09 - 00:50:01:02 Speaker 1 We have to take everything off and put it back. You know, stucco this last long. I know that that's not the case. Stucco less very long time. I mean, look, of all of Europe remind you that some of those are masonry, but it will last a long time. So long as it's maintain it's flash. Right. And you take care of the little things, but it shouldn't need to be redone every ten years. 00:50:01:02 - 00:50:02:06 Speaker 1 That's that's crazy. 00:50:02:11 - 00:50:18:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. What about cast stone? I've seen a lot of, cast stone. That's, you know, ten, 15, 20 years old that has separations and gaps and more, you know, mortar coming out. What are some maintenance things with cast only needs to be done. 00:50:18:10 - 00:50:38:11 Speaker 1 So same thing. I mean, pointing up grout joints and stuff like that. I mean, these houses do move a lot more than you think. And with Castle being is is strong. It is. You know, you might have some mortar that falls out. So that's as simple as, you know, going in repointing of the mortar. Mortar. Same thing with, you know, brick, you can go and repoint up some mortar gaps, but making sure, you know, windows within cast on, you know, they're sealed. 00:50:38:13 - 00:50:56:13 Speaker 1 Any penetration sealed like that? For the chimney, the gas for making sure all those are sealed. Your electrical boxes are sealed. Your your outlet boxes are sealed. What? Regardless of the veneer, I mean, to me, I treat them all the same. I'm not going to treat stucco more. So I got to make sure I called everything right. 00:50:56:13 - 00:51:10:03 Speaker 1 No, I'm gonna caulk everything. Stucco and caulk everything. Castle, caulk everything. Brick. They're all gonna be caulk the same, right? But it's just making sure and just taking it. Take a walk by a house and just look the the left side. The right side. You never know where it was. Take a look at, you know, every once a year, two years. 00:51:10:03 - 00:51:14:14 Speaker 1 Check it around. See what you see. If you see something, get it taken care of. Yeah. You know. 00:51:14:16 - 00:51:34:12 Speaker 2 Yeah we've we've mentioned before, I think it was, Eric Kline with Good Smith when he was on here. You know, his his quote is, you know, your car doesn't have a check engine light. And that's what you said. You know, you're with your car. You're kind of waiting for that, for that light to come on, to remind you to check your oil or, but with your house, there's there's no check engine light. 00:51:34:15 - 00:51:36:23 Speaker 2 So your best tool is your eyes. 00:51:37:03 - 00:51:37:18 Speaker 1 Exactly. 00:51:37:18 - 00:51:39:07 Speaker 2 To walk around. Just look at things. 00:51:39:12 - 00:51:53:23 Speaker 1 Look at things. And they have like like gunsmith. They had some other guys I know, Frankel design build. They have their Frankel home care. They got guys that maybe once or twice a year come out, check it out. Look, things. Hey, I saw this, I saw this. You won't take care of that. And it's taking care of those little things to make sure you don't have a problem. 00:51:53:23 - 00:52:12:02 Speaker 1 Because we all know those little things turn into really big things. And by the time you notice them, because you're getting water on the inside, it's too late. It's going to be a big bill and insurance does not cover that. They may change that roof out, but they're not going to change the mold that happened because you didn't keep the caulking up to date on your windows. 00:52:12:05 - 00:52:38:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, you have to take care of your your side or the maintenance. You know. Exactly. That's responsibility for for owning a house. As we kind of wrap things up, what, I want to do to ask you, what advice would you give, builders who are doing stucco in places like Houston with hot, humid climates or even, you know, Pacific Northwest, where it's not a hot, humid climate, but it's a very wet. 00:52:38:11 - 00:52:45:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. Climate. What advice would you give builders who who are doing stucco or who want to do stucco? 00:52:45:04 - 00:53:07:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. The biggest thing is you got it all starts with the rbh. You're already in your flashings. If you can take care of those and then put, you know, a true drainage cavity in there via rain screen, and then make sure everything's sealed and you have these redundancies. Everything should work out fine. Now, mind you, you only use stronger than the weakest link. 00:53:07:05 - 00:53:25:17 Speaker 1 So get some quality contractors. Yeah, I know we're all dollar driven, but let's. Let's care. That's a big thing. I hope you guys like you won't find somebody who cares more than I care. Yeah, we're here to make money, but I care about doing things right. Find contractors who care. You know, I promise you're finding employees who care, right? 00:53:25:22 - 00:53:32:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. So find contractors who care just as much as you care and go build a good house. Give someone a quality product. 00:53:32:05 - 00:53:56:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. And and I would say, you know, verify. You know, I've said this million times on here. Trust me. Verify. You know, get that you get that third party inspector. Again, 100%, maybe $1,000 line item on your overall budget, but have a third party come out. I mean, unless you personally want to crawl up on a ladder way up on a second or third floor of a house all the way around, right? 00:53:56:02 - 00:54:13:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. Get a third party to come out and look at it and make sure that your subcontractors did it right. You know, because again, as as the owner of a construction company, I'm trusting my project manager checked it. He's trusting the subcontractor, rejected it, and he's trusting his $15 an hour guy did it. Right. 00:54:13:06 - 00:54:29:00 Speaker 1 So because we all keep check everything. Yeah. Eventually you got to trust somebody else. They're going to do their job. Right. But at the end of the day, I mean, hiring those third party inspectors, I'm a big proponent of them, whether it be if you're buying a stucco house, a really any house, get a stucco inspection, if you're getting buying any house, get a home inspection. 00:54:29:02 - 00:54:46:18 Speaker 1 If you're building a house, you know, exterior inspections, they'll do a substrate, a lab, and then we're done and they're closing. They'll come check to make sure we came back and sealed after our final touch up. We go back. Can we seal all our, you know, outlets, make sure all the whole boxes, the electrical or everything's sealed, right? 00:54:46:19 - 00:54:52:09 Speaker 1 Make sure everything's touch up. Well, they have them to come back and double check. Guys, I'm cool that we're not perfect. Do we miss things sometimes? Yeah. 00:54:52:09 - 00:54:53:08 Speaker 2 We definitely. Yeah. 00:54:53:10 - 00:54:55:05 Speaker 1 When we go back and we get it done. 00:54:55:07 - 00:55:15:14 Speaker 2 Well, they're they're just another part of the team, right. Like. Yeah. And it's it's peace of mind and insurance for you too. Right. Because if and that's why I tell people all the time is it's, I'm not afraid to call these people to check my work because it's a long term peace of mind for me. Because if they catch something that we missed, that's a liability that's off of me, right? 00:55:15:18 - 00:55:33:15 Speaker 1 No. Exactly. I mean, it's also you sleep at night because I. It should you shouldn't have to get nervous every time it rings. Right. Because, you know, you got a good team behind you. Everybody's checking up on everybody. And it's transparent, especially with the homeowners. They know, hey, look, this is everything we did. This is what was wrong. 00:55:33:15 - 00:55:35:07 Speaker 1 We fix it. It's good. We're good to go. Yeah. 00:55:35:12 - 00:55:48:01 Speaker 2 So so for homeowners, what advice would you have for for a homeowner. So if they've got stucco on their building plans on a house they're building, how do they know that they're getting a an install that they're not going to worry about? 00:55:48:03 - 00:56:06:21 Speaker 1 The biggest thing is obviously you chose your builder for a reason. Now if you go and if you if you're nervous about the whole stucco process, you know, talk to your stucco contractor and ask them, you know, what are some other builders you work with? And if they point to some of the other builders you were already looking at, well, that gives you a little bit peace of mind, right? 00:56:06:23 - 00:56:24:02 Speaker 1 And just by knowing who they work for and how long have they been in business, not to say a young company is not a good company, but I mean, if they've been around like us, 30 years, you know, or been in the same office for 30 years. Yeah, you know, we're still going to be there one day, I hope I can my kids will come work for me and I'll pass along. 00:56:24:02 - 00:56:25:08 Speaker 1 They won't be there another 60 years. 00:56:25:13 - 00:56:33:03 Speaker 2 I mean, even basic things like, do they actually have a website in an office, or is it just a dude who's operating out of his truck or his house? 00:56:33:05 - 00:56:48:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Can I come to the office? These examples, we got a big old sample water office. Come check it out. You can touch it, fill it up in a different color if you want me to. You know, things like that. Yeah. To where? You know, they're there and they're not going to just change the name of their company and open up shop somewhere else. 00:56:48:08 - 00:56:53:11 Speaker 1 Like, now I'm going to be there. So at this day, if something does go wrong, I promise you I'm going to make it right. Yeah. 00:56:53:13 - 00:57:12:06 Speaker 2 But also, as a homeowner, you know, before before that, before you sign the contract with the builder, ask what kind of of a waterproofing system they use. Ask them what kind of drainage mat do they use? You know, say, hey, would you tell me the name of your stucco contractor so I can look them up. 00:57:12:10 - 00:57:27:16 Speaker 1 And look them up, do your research? So I know, like us, I mean, we have a website. We have our stuff. You can call me. I answer my phone at almost any hour. My wife gets upset about that, but, I answer my phone a lot. But, I mean, if they're there and they're willing to talk to you and, well, what is your warranty? 00:57:27:16 - 00:57:43:14 Speaker 1 You know, we got a warranty document. What is that? You know, asking questions. If they can't answer the questions, well, you probably got a bigger issue. Now if they can answer the questions and they were able to back things up and you can see who they work for other reputable builders in town. We should have a little peace of mind at that point. 00:57:43:17 - 00:58:07:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. And again, you know, if it ask if your builder does their third party inspections and if the builder doesn't do it, then pay for it. You know, again, it's it's a thousand bucks, I want to say exterior inspections charges like 1000 or 1200 a party depends on the size of the job. But anyway, a thousand bucks as a homeowner to spend that to get the peace of mind if your builder's not already doing it. 00:58:07:17 - 00:58:11:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's to me. To me, that's an easy decision. Just to go ahead and and pay for. 00:58:11:17 - 00:58:30:23 Speaker 1 That, especially because they're doing a substrate and they're doing the lab and they're doing the final. I mean, to do all of those, I think you should be doing all those as a builder. I don't know why you wouldn't be. I mean, it's not going back to save a money. I mean, a thousand bucks. But a problem is going to be 20, 30, 40, $100,000. 00:58:31:01 - 00:58:34:20 Speaker 1 I'm personally not a gambler, so I wouldn't want to gamble. So. 00:58:34:22 - 00:58:55:12 Speaker 2 So so Rondelle and Riley, if you're listening, we've been plugging you like crazy so you can write the check to your project Shepherd podcast and send that on in to us for the referrals. All right. Well, as we wrap up, any other takeaways you want to throw out there for homeowners or builders? Anything. Anything else that you want people just just to remember from this conversation? 00:58:55:14 - 00:59:15:12 Speaker 1 The biggest thing is obviously I would say whether you use my rain screens, use tan lines, rain screen almost on any cladding. I would recommend a rain screen to give you that guaranteed true drainage cavity. Other than that, I do have a patented ventilated stucco system. When I get that out, maybe in a year or so. 00:59:15:12 - 00:59:19:10 Speaker 1 We're close. We're so close. Okay, I get it out. I'll come back to you. We do another podcast about it. 00:59:19:10 - 00:59:20:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, let's do it. 00:59:20:06 - 00:59:21:05 Speaker 1 Get that out there. 00:59:21:07 - 00:59:31:23 Speaker 2 Awesome. Well, I hey, to wrap up, tell us how to how people can can find precision and how people can can find plain drain. You know, the websites, social media, all that stuff. 00:59:32:00 - 00:59:55:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. So precision we are PD cast dotcom I think Instagram where PD underscore cast. As far as playing drain we're playing domain.com. I think that Instagram is playing drain solutions. That one. I don't know that one. I do have one. I got some videos on there. But go online, find us online and, reach out and call us. 00:59:55:02 - 01:00:04:05 Speaker 1 Just talk. If you got questions, call him, ask questions. I'm I'm here to answer them. And if I can't work with you, at least I can provide you some insight to where you can go and make the right decision. 01:00:04:06 - 01:00:10:07 Speaker 2 And do you operate just here in Houston, or do you kind of cover, more of Texas or what's your operational area? 01:00:10:09 - 01:00:30:04 Speaker 1 I mean, we've been going everything's been going further and further. So right now we got a job in Brown, we got another one on Lake Conroe. We do jobs in Galveston. We've done in Brenham, Sugarland, woodlands, obviously. Anything interior? Houston, Kingwood. Obviously, the further you go out, it gets a little bit more expensive with gas and and overtime calls and things of that nature. 01:00:30:06 - 01:00:32:14 Speaker 1 But yeah, I mean, we go pretty much anywhere. 01:00:32:16 - 01:00:36:07 Speaker 2 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been great. Great talking to you. Yeah. 01:00:36:08 - 01:00:37:11 Speaker 1 Appreciate it man. Thank you so much. 01:00:37:16 - 01:00:46:23 Speaker 2 And thank you all of you for listening to the apprenticeship or podcast. We'll see you next time. 01:00:47:01 - 01:00:57:02 Speaker 2 Tune in weekly for my conversations with industry leading guests to learn about processes, products, and the science behind building. Together. We'll make your next project a success.