00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:18
Speaker 1
There is no better energy efficiency measure that anyone can undertake, whether it comes to water heating, space heating. Just being comfortable in your home is air tightness. Build a tight an insulator. Right. And God, the amount of things you can accomplish just by by getting those two components perfectly, or at least as close, as perfect as you can, is incredible.

00:00:25:20 - 00:00:43:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, because once you insulate the whole envelope of the home, it becomes much, much easier to control what comes in and what goes out.

00:00:43:07 - 00:00:59:13
Speaker 2
Hey everyone, welcome to this new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. Another nail biting, exciting episode where we dig into some building science heat pumps or something that you've probably heard of. I bet that when you hear that, you think about an air conditioning system, right? Because that's what most people think of when they hear the term heat pump.

00:00:59:15 - 00:01:16:20
Speaker 2
But today we're going to cover some other big uses or some other new uses, newer uses for heat pump technology, and that is with water heaters and clothes dryers. And to talk about this with us today, I've got my friend for his second visit on the podcast is Voya. Hey Denver, you.

00:01:16:22 - 00:01:23:16
Speaker 1
Doing very well man. Good to be here. Made it home safely from Boston last night, so I'm glad to be here.

00:01:23:16 - 00:01:41:00
Speaker 2
I started to say your whole name and then I realize I forgot to practice your last name pronunciation. I was like, if I just say it, I'm going to butcher it because I always verify that with people before I try to pronounce it. And I forgot to verify it with you. So voy Milosevic. Milosevic, Milosevic, dead government.

00:01:41:00 - 00:01:50:13
Speaker 2
I was so close. Oh my gosh. And I've said it many times before, but I always like, choke on it when it comes time to say it on the, on the air. So sorry about that.

00:01:50:13 - 00:02:04:04
Speaker 1
Don't don't feel bad. I just got married about a month ago, but we've been together for almost three years and she still can't pronounce the name properly. So I figure if it takes my wife 3 or 4 years to learn how to pronounce our last name. You're doing this.

00:02:04:07 - 00:02:07:01
Speaker 2
I was going to say. Was she brave? Did she take your last name?

00:02:07:06 - 00:02:08:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:08:06 - 00:02:11:20
Speaker 2
Okay, so she did. So now she has to teach all of her friends and everyone else. I pronounce.

00:02:11:20 - 00:02:13:22
Speaker 1
It. She's just going to just tell them first name.

00:02:13:22 - 00:02:14:19
Speaker 2
So yeah.

00:02:15:01 - 00:02:15:23
Speaker 1
I doubt she's going to use it.

00:02:15:23 - 00:02:33:03
Speaker 2
I'll just call me Mrs. Zim. Wolf, thanks for coming back for your second visit. Tell me what you've been up to since we last visited last time when you were on, you had, just a couple days before the podcast had a job change. You were with Mitsubishi for quite a while, and now you are with LG, right?

00:02:33:05 - 00:02:58:19
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Yeah. So I moved over to LG, continuing the, the electrification advocacy and evangelism. So lots of fun stuff going on, some new technologies coming out, some new things happening. It gives us access to pretty much a whole home electrification suite of products. And, the company's moving in the direction that the future of electrification is moving in.

00:02:58:19 - 00:03:13:09
Speaker 1
So I'm excited to be there, excited to be part of it. Lots and lots of learning about their brand and their technologies, what they play with. But it has been a very, very fun last, what, about four months or so now? Five months almost.

00:03:13:09 - 00:03:14:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:03:14:03 - 00:03:20:22
Speaker 1
And then just came back from the doctor, Joe Steber summer camp for building science misfits.

00:03:21:00 - 00:03:21:15
Speaker 2
That's awesome.

00:03:21:19 - 00:03:30:01
Speaker 1
Hopefully that catches on. That's not what. But it was an amazing week up there. Got a little cool last couple of days. I was not expecting that.

00:03:30:01 - 00:03:31:03
Speaker 2
I'm jealous.

00:03:31:05 - 00:03:41:15
Speaker 1
You know, I wasn't jealous. I didn't bring jackets or anything like that with me, so I'm, like, sitting there going, should I, like, run into town and go buy a sweater or something out here?

00:03:41:19 - 00:03:43:03
Speaker 2
Where is that? What town is that?

00:03:43:06 - 00:04:17:01
Speaker 1
It's in Westford, Massachusetts, a beautiful little town about 45 minutes north west of Boston. Doctor Joe's got it. It's the building Science Corporation headquarters is there, and they've got a beautiful spread that they put on this building science symposium. Annually. The amount of just brainpower present at this event is. It's something I look forward to every single year to just be able to go there and maybe like, just through being around him, absorb some of that, some of that brainpower, some of that knowledge, because it just oozes.

00:04:17:03 - 00:04:30:08
Speaker 2
I would love to go to that sometime soon. I saw that my friend Miguel from Tamlin was there. In fact, he was posting some pictures of a barbecue cook off, had the Texas team doing barbecue and impressing all the New Englanders with our superior barbecue.

00:04:30:10 - 00:04:43:22
Speaker 1
Oh, the food is the food is phenomenal. Every single night. I told my wife I was like, you know, maybe just understand. I will come back with the 20 pounds heavier work on that when I come back. But just know that it's happening because it's it's a fun time.

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:02:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, speaking of fun times, new technologies. Like I said, we're going to talk about heat pumps today. And again, people think of air conditioners when they think of heat pumps because for in the technology's been around for a long time. You know in the 1980s when I was a kid, my parents had a heat pump in their house in North Carolina.

00:05:02:04 - 00:05:16:06
Speaker 2
But that technology has come a long way. It's evolved and it's transitioned to different uses now other than just air conditioning. So for people who aren't familiar with heat pump technology, what's, in the simplest terms, what is a heat pump and how does it work?

00:05:16:06 - 00:05:32:16
Speaker 1
Everyone has a heat pump in their home right now. If you have a fridge in your kitchen, you have a heat pump. All a heat pump is is just a simple device that moves heat from one place to the other. An air conditioner essentially moves heat from inside the house out, right? That's it. It's a one way device.

00:05:32:16 - 00:05:54:20
Speaker 1
All a heat pump does is simply add another component, a reversing valve that simply just switches the process around. So the same piece of equipment. Now instead of taking heat from inside, removing it and putting it outside can now take the heat from outside, put it inside the house. And like you said, technology has involved just like cars, computers, right?

00:05:54:20 - 00:05:58:14
Speaker 1
I remember my first computer being, what was it, a Commodore 64?

00:05:58:15 - 00:05:59:13
Speaker 2
I had one of those.

00:05:59:13 - 00:06:28:03
Speaker 1
Oh, my God, it was amazing. But it was like the size of this desk. And they had to hook it up to your TV. And it was just it was massive and it was slowing cumbersome. But for us, that was like the future. Heat pumps have moved alongside all other technology. So we're able with heat pumps now to remove heat from air, even when it's like 15 to 13, 15, 20 degrees below zero outside, there is still heat in that air, right?

00:06:28:03 - 00:06:45:10
Speaker 1
We can efficiently move that heat inside. And it's much more efficient than using, say, electric strips, or even gas. Right? We're getting more energy units by using heat pump technology than by just simply either burning gas or other fossil fuels or just use it.

00:06:45:13 - 00:07:07:09
Speaker 2
And one of the big knocks on heat pumps used to be in colder climates or in the winter, they just weren't as efficient and they had to switch over to that backup heat strip all the time, which would suck the electricity. But the the newer models, the new the newer improvements to the technology have really changed that to where it's got to be pretty freaking cold for it to have to revert to the backup heat strip now.

00:07:07:09 - 00:07:27:12
Speaker 1
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, most your inverter driven heat pumps right now at five degrees Fahrenheit, there's still operating at 100% capacity. You know, you don't need to go like maybe negative ten, -13 before you really start to need that backup strip. And for us down here in Texas never need it.

00:07:27:14 - 00:07:45:15
Speaker 2
We'll probably never need it. Right? We still have a lot of AC guys, because we switch to installing all heat pump units on our new constructions, and the AC guys will at least a lot of the old school guys, right? Will still tell you that you've got to have that backup heat strip and they'll they'll sell that. Right.

00:07:45:15 - 00:07:58:15
Speaker 2
But I would say most of the manufacturers, if not all of them, the current technology, you really don't have to have it. It's kind of a it's something they're putting on there is a worst case scenario. But in reality you could just say that money.

00:07:58:17 - 00:08:18:04
Speaker 1
I don't have backup strips or backup heat in my house. My mom and dad and I love my mom and dad. My mom and dad have a inverter and heat pump in their home. It is slightly undersized, so it actually performs better in summertime by removing more moisture. And even with it being undersized, they've gone through five winters in that home.

00:08:18:04 - 00:08:31:06
Speaker 1
Right now it's a 1994 built home, so nothing spectacular when it comes to air tightness and, insulation levels. And they've gone through, like I said, five winters with no need for any kind of backup. Heat proof is in the pudding.

00:08:31:09 - 00:08:59:23
Speaker 2
Exactly. And so you mentioned it was slightly undersized and it provided some additional humidification. That's one of the big benefits to heat pump systems also, is you get more edification. Actually with any air conditioning system you're going to get some level of the modification, right. But heat pump systems in general are better at that. And then when you start looking at you got a heat pump, clothes dryer, heat pump, water heater, you're adding that additional benefit throughout the house.

00:08:59:23 - 00:09:37:06
Speaker 1
Absolutely. So a typical heat pump water heater will provide anywhere from a quarter ton to almost a ton of heating capacity, in that it takes that heat from inside the house and moves it into the water that cools your house. So it says it's an additional cooling system in summertime. So for, you know, those folks that have a good heat pump, water heater and have it in the conditioned space, which is key with water heaters, and that's something we can talk a little bit more in detail, but if they have it in there now, they also have an additional pony system so they can have their AC sized for the majority of the year, instead

00:09:37:06 - 00:09:52:15
Speaker 1
of sizing it for that 104 degree day. And then they have the water heater that just gives them the ability to have that extra, you know, half ton, quarter ton to a ton of capacity for those 104 degree days without having to be oversize with their AC system.

00:09:52:17 - 00:10:20:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. One of the other big benefits toward all of these uses, water heaters, dryers, AC is is we're eliminating more penetrations from the through the building envelope. Right. Preventing the the combustion, the combustion air and exhausting that the carbon monoxide. So you're eliminating that that vent for your water heater the vent for your dryer. Because the heat pump dryers are ductless, you're you're getting rid of the full pipe for the gas on your furnace.

00:10:20:11 - 00:10:26:11
Speaker 2
So that's three often 3 or 4 inch holes through your envelope that you're getting rid of.

00:10:26:12 - 00:10:50:06
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And as a building science geek, you're you're talking my language, are you? You're getting me excited when it comes to ducted clothes dryers specifically, let's talk gas. What most people don't realize is that when that gas dryer runs, that's roughly between 800 to 1200 cfm, that it's exhausting. Your house is going negative.

00:10:50:06 - 00:10:51:11
Speaker 2
Pressure, right?

00:10:51:11 - 00:11:08:20
Speaker 1
Where is that makeup air coming from? Where's it coming through? Yep. And if any of your listeners have done a remodel on their existing home and opened up a wall, an exterior wall, to be specific, they've seen what's in there. That's what's filtering your makeup, hair that comes into your home.

00:11:08:23 - 00:11:19:05
Speaker 2
Right? It's sucking the air from all those little cracks and crevices and insects, you know? Yeah, we like to say all the roach poop in your walls, all that air filter through those things.

00:11:19:08 - 00:11:46:02
Speaker 1
That's what's filtering your air coming back into your home. And 1200 CFM is a lot of air movement. Yeah. That's what's coming into your house. That's what you're breeding just by running a close dryer. So when we go to heat pump clothes dryers that are vents, we eliminate one more additional piece from our home that can make it go pressure negative and cause all of that air to coming through unchecked little cracks.

00:11:46:02 - 00:12:01:23
Speaker 1
And around your ceiling can lights. And, you know, through that insulation in the attic with all the squirrel poop. Let's add that, too. There's a lot of things that we have to think about how we live and what it is that we breathe. These technologies are being designed in such a way to help make our homes healthier.

00:12:02:01 - 00:12:27:06
Speaker 2
And indoor air quality. So you're you're getting all that combustion, all that, all that gas combustion out of your house, too. You know, we've we've eliminated on on a lot of new homes now by using induction induction cooking. That's one big, you know, emission source in your house. We're getting rid of by switching to induction. So the other low hanging fruit is the furnace the water heater and the clothes dryer.

00:12:27:06 - 00:12:49:12
Speaker 2
I mean really those are the the main four sources or the only four sources usually of gas combustion in a house. And so if we're if we're getting rid of those, we're making the air that we breathe cleaner. It's improving our our health. If our kids have asthma, it's helping that. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of benefits to getting that combustion out of the envelope.

00:12:49:14 - 00:13:08:13
Speaker 1
You know, there's benefits beyond just health. You know, for every woman listening and every guy that likes to cook like I do listening the way I convince my wife that we're going to get a induction cooktop. I spilled stuff on the stove. Wasn't on purpose, but I cleaned it up and it was so easy to clean because there's no hot surface, right?

00:13:08:14 - 00:13:15:16
Speaker 1
Nothing burns and sticks. It was amazing. She looked at it. She was like, oh, can we get one of those? You betcha we can. Yeah.

00:13:15:16 - 00:13:18:03
Speaker 2
And it's it's smooth and flat too. Yeah, yeah.

00:13:18:09 - 00:13:33:03
Speaker 1
So but let's talk about it. Let's talk about water heaters more. I mentioned just a minute ago that one of the big things about what we need to change, whereas as we build homes is where we place water heaters.

00:13:33:05 - 00:13:33:21
Speaker 2
Yep.

00:13:33:23 - 00:13:55:20
Speaker 1
Down here we're used to two places we need to put our water heaters in the attic, or we put our water heaters in a garage in the south. Yeah, putting a water heater, especially a heat pump water heater in a garage does have some benefits. It'll help keep your garage a little bit cooler. Okay. How often? Who cares if I'm going to spend a lot of time in the garage?

00:13:55:22 - 00:14:08:16
Speaker 1
That water heater is not going to cool it down enough. I'm still going to get a mini split for the garage. I'm going to turn it into a main cave or a shop or, you know, I like to tool on my Harley and work on it and live on it a little bit. That's my that's my other girlfriend.

00:14:08:16 - 00:14:30:08
Speaker 1
But I like to have my mini split in there because the water heater can't keep up with the heat week, right? So why not look at putting the water heater in the conditioned space so like I mentioned, when I was at the building science summer camp, I was talking to Gary. And Gary Klein is a genius when it comes to water systems.

00:14:30:12 - 00:14:54:06
Speaker 1
Like most people that play around with designing plumbing and water systems know who Gary Klein is. I've heard that name and we were just having a discussion about like, where do we place these? And the ability to put in a heat pump, water heater in, let's say, a space like a pantry that's next to the fridge, and then pull the air that you supplied to the water heater from the side of the pantry where the fridge is.

00:14:54:07 - 00:15:15:12
Speaker 1
Because fridge generates heat, your kitchen is always generating heat while we're cooking, while we're congregating, let's take that heat and help make the water heater run more efficiently. And then let's put the air, the cold air off of it, back in the kitchen and in the pantry. Now we have a European style cold room in our pantry, which is super, super nice.

00:15:15:12 - 00:15:35:10
Speaker 1
If I can reach in and grab your beer and it's nice and cool, that's a good that's a good thing, right? But secondly, we're now adding that little bit of cooling in the space where we need it most. And if we think about it, when are we going to use the most amount of water in the evening when everybody is coming home from work, getting ready for bed?

00:15:35:14 - 00:15:38:23
Speaker 1
Right. When are we generating the most heat in the kitchen?

00:15:39:01 - 00:15:39:14
Speaker 2
In the evening?

00:15:39:14 - 00:15:41:15
Speaker 1
In the evening when we're cooking our meals, or.

00:15:41:15 - 00:15:45:13
Speaker 2
Maybe the same thing in the morning for both with the same reasons. Right. So yeah.

00:15:45:17 - 00:16:10:20
Speaker 1
You're still making breakfast. Kids are taking showers, getting ready, going to school. Yep. So we're now using those passive principles to help both the fridge work more efficiently to help the water heater more work more, work more efficiently, and to overcome the one place where typically when we design and we do manual jobs, why do we have to select the space as a kitchen?

00:16:10:20 - 00:16:14:08
Speaker 2
Because it's a big heat load. It's a big design consideration because of the heat load.

00:16:14:08 - 00:16:22:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, we've got appliances there. We're generating humidity there. Those are all things that we now have to overcome with our central AC.

00:16:22:02 - 00:16:27:02
Speaker 2
If there's makeup air coming in the kitchen, you're dumping in more of the warmer outside air via make up air.

00:16:27:02 - 00:16:34:15
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And now you have a little unit. That's right there and helps overcome all of that. And it doesn't affect the rest of your house. Yeah. Runs more efficiently.

00:16:34:15 - 00:16:35:06
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:16:35:08 - 00:16:41:10
Speaker 1
So we just have to think about where do we put things. And all the sudden the sky is just the limit.

00:16:41:12 - 00:17:01:17
Speaker 2
That's a that's a great point. It's funny, I hadn't I had not thought about it like that. But a house that we're building right now that we were discussing a few minutes ago, what's a demonstration house for another company? But this was unintentional. But now that you that you say this, this works out that way. We've got our refrigerator are in the corner of the kitchen a few feet away.

00:17:01:17 - 00:17:16:12
Speaker 2
We've got our heat pump, water heater, we've got our range and we've got our our washer dryer right there all within you know, eight feet of each other. And, and it's one area of, of the kitchen and pantry. And so that's a that's a great benefit that I hadn't even thought about.

00:17:16:14 - 00:17:22:20
Speaker 1
No, I bet you that water heater was also designed to look nice. So it actually is meant to go right.

00:17:22:22 - 00:17:44:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's something we, we were chatting about before we started recording was that, you know, like anything there's there's a big variety of price points and quality points for these products. Right. You can get your we'll call it the entry level or the base model heat pump water heater that you can probably get a big box store that, you know, they kind of look like a traditional tank water heater.

00:17:45:02 - 00:18:01:15
Speaker 2
It's not something that you will necessarily want to have in your in your space, where people are going to see it all the time. It's not meant to be pretty necessarily, but then companies like LG are making a very attractive, heat pump water heater unit. There's some other companies that are bringing some stuff to market that still looks really sharp.

00:18:01:15 - 00:18:15:07
Speaker 2
It looks like it's meant to be within that space. And so, yeah, I mean that these companies are starting to put some thought into if we want people to have this in a conditioned space, if people are going to be looking at it, we want it to look nice.

00:18:15:12 - 00:18:33:07
Speaker 1
Oh of course, yeah, ours is nice and stainless steel. The first time I looked at it, I saw that thing. I was like, Holy cow, it's a Cylon. And if you're a fan of Battlestar Galactica, you'll know what I'm talking about. And the next thought was that it's probably going to kill me. My sleep hours, that I still want it anyway because it just look cool and sexy, and it's like it's something you want to show off.

00:18:33:07 - 00:18:46:19
Speaker 1
And it's designed to look that way specifically to encourage people to bring it into the space so that it becomes efficient. Like we actually start to use the technology in a way that it was meant to be used.

00:18:46:22 - 00:18:52:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Does the LG unit have an outside condensing unit or is it an all in one package?

00:18:52:16 - 00:18:59:21
Speaker 1
It's an all in one package. So it's it's outstanding for new construction and retrofits. It'll fit pretty much anywhere where you have a standard, you know, standard height.

00:19:00:02 - 00:19:16:20
Speaker 2
Awesome. Yeah. So some of it, some of the units, well, most of the ones that are currently on the market, again, the ones that look like a traditional water heater or all in one unit sounds like yours is on one unit. I have seen some other brands that have an inside outside set up, just like a mini split would.

00:19:16:21 - 00:19:20:06
Speaker 2
Essentially it is a mini split. It's just a water heating mini split.

00:19:20:07 - 00:19:42:10
Speaker 1
Yeah there are there are several companies that do it. We have product that does the same thing. Personally, I prefer the all in one installations. Easy installation is easier. It fits in places where you would typically want a water heater, but then we can use our monoblock product for other things like, you know, space heating and cooling.

00:19:42:10 - 00:19:45:04
Speaker 1
And it's essentially like a mini heat pump chiller.

00:19:45:06 - 00:19:46:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:19:46:01 - 00:20:05:01
Speaker 1
And I'm actually pretty close to putting one of those in my house so that I can just kind of play with it and see how it works in our climate. But we can we can do a whole nother episode talking about monoblock and about hydraulics, because I really do feel that when it comes to space heating and cooling, hydronic has a huge potential to be the future.

00:20:05:04 - 00:20:21:18
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I've seen some I haven't seen any here in the US yet, although they may be in the US. Maybe LG is doing this, but I've seen some some companies overseas, at least right now, have some combo air conditioning units and water heating units. The same heat pump is doing both tasks.

00:20:21:20 - 00:20:41:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, we have them. We have them available. They're really nice. They're super efficient, but they can work just as well as the all in one water heater. It just really all depends on what is your application, what it is you're looking to do, and how are you wanting to design your system. So it just opens up multiple possibilities to fit every need.

00:20:41:10 - 00:21:02:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, so design is a big consideration. So like you said, ideally they're within the condition space. So it's just one of these things that architects designers builders need to have some advance planning, you know with a with a traditional tank water heater or with a tankless water heater. A lot of times the placement on the water heater is kind of an afterthought.

00:21:02:22 - 00:21:16:18
Speaker 2
It's like, oh, I mean, I designed or architectural design. There's no thought given, given really to where the water heater is going. It's just kind of up to the builder and the plumber in the field. It will just stick in the attic there, will slap it on the outside of the house. Here. We'll put it in the garage or whatever.

00:21:16:19 - 00:21:26:00
Speaker 2
So so one thing about these, if you're going to reap the full benefit of it, is you've really got to plan on where you're going to put it during the design process.

00:21:26:03 - 00:21:51:12
Speaker 1
Yes. And you know, wow, what a surprise that if we simply just pay a little bit more attention to everything during design process, rather than putting a little note in, we'll figure it out. Down the road, things all of a sudden start to not only look nicer and look like they were actually done intentionally, but believe it or not, it starts to become a lot cheaper because you can plan for it.

00:21:51:12 - 00:22:00:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know that. I see on plans a lot is, you know, a contractor to verify location of equipment in the field, and it's like the architect's just kind of passing the buck.

00:22:00:13 - 00:22:11:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. What a what a better way. Like, is there a better way to really just ensure that it's because yeah, let's go ahead and let three contractors down the road decide how things are going to look for our design.

00:22:12:03 - 00:22:15:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or how it's going to how it's going to function, how efficient it's going to be.

00:22:16:02 - 00:22:32:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you want to run your shower for ten minutes before you get hot water, go for it. But if you'd like to get your hot water nice and quick and not have to use additional pumps and everything else, follow Gary Klein. Teach you a thing or two on how to design a plumbing system that just works really, really efficient.

00:22:32:07 - 00:22:53:04
Speaker 2
So so hot water delivery rate. So that's that's something I wanted to touch on because, you know, with a tankless or traditional tank, you can do a recirculating pump or one on a timer or whatever. What are your thoughts on heat pump water heaters? But with hot water delivery, especially if they're a, you know, some distance from the fixture?

00:22:53:07 - 00:23:06:15
Speaker 2
That's one concern that I have heard is, okay, if I've got a 60 or 80 gallon heat pump, water heater, tank, that's a floor away and 50ft away, yeah. Is the speed at which that water is going to get to the shower.

00:23:06:18 - 00:23:27:02
Speaker 1
So let's cover. That's a great that's a great little myth. And I love myth busting. Good I kind of wish that show wasn't there. But water is water. So at the point where that water is getting heated, I don't care whether it's being heated by gas, by electric, by a heat pump, or if it's a pass through water heater.

00:23:27:04 - 00:23:55:01
Speaker 1
If it's 70ft of pipe exposed in the attic from the point of where your water is heated or stored to the point where you need to use it, you still have 70ft of pipe exposed to right conditions in the attic. It's still going to take the same distance, right? So really now we need to talk about like what is the pass through the first hour pass through rate for that water heater, instant water heaters or I guess the tankless.

00:23:55:03 - 00:24:16:14
Speaker 1
They're not really instant. I mean, they're instant doors in the sense that they start to heat water when you trigger them and they can do the job very, very well. They're just super energy intensive. They don't maintain, but they're super energy intensive when they run. Okay. So how do we overcome that? Well, just build a tank that's better insulated.

00:24:16:14 - 00:24:40:04
Speaker 1
I mean, water is a great medium for retaining heat energy. And if we just simply insulate the tank, well then you got benefits right there. I mean, you're using less energy and it takes a very, very small amount of energy to maintain temperature in that thing. So now when we start using the water, looking at the LG's water heater, for example, and I'm not going to bring up other brands or anything like that, all of them fairly, you get fairly close.

00:24:40:04 - 00:25:03:06
Speaker 1
But for example, ours, we have a 50 gallon tank and then we have a 80 gallon tank and our 50 gallon, I'm sorry, 55 gallon tank has a first our pass rate of, I want to say 67 gallons. And then the 80 gallon tank has a first hour pass for rate of 97 gallons or so. All of that at a copy of 3.93.

00:25:03:08 - 00:25:30:15
Speaker 1
So it's super, super efficient, very low energy use, yet it delivers water at essentially the same faster rates as the older product did. Yeah, it just holds it much, much better because it's a better insulated thing. So the delivery now just comes down to how do we design the plumbing system. Am I placing my water heater in a place that's kind of central to where most of my water is going to be used?

00:25:30:15 - 00:25:37:03
Speaker 1
Or again, am I sticking my water heater in the garage? Which guess where do we always put the garage?

00:25:37:06 - 00:25:37:22
Speaker 2
The corner of.

00:25:37:22 - 00:25:57:10
Speaker 1
The house, the very furthest place away from the first place suite, right. Because primary suite, that's where the money in the honey sleep. We don't want to hear the water heater. We don't want to hear the car in the garage door coming in and opening up and closing. So we put our primary bedroom, primary bathroom as far away from the water heater.

00:25:57:12 - 00:26:11:22
Speaker 1
And then we wonder why is it take so long for water to get to? And then we put research pumps and all kinds of stuff to overcome things that can simply be overcome by smarter design. Yeah, put the water heater closer to where you need it. It's going to be much, much better for you.

00:26:12:00 - 00:26:22:20
Speaker 2
But can't. Can heat pump water heaters work with a restart pump? I mean, I've heard that you're kind of defeating the purpose if you're if you're doing recirculation on a heat pump water heater.

00:26:22:22 - 00:26:23:11
Speaker 1
I mean.

00:26:23:14 - 00:26:25:23
Speaker 2
Because you're making it work more essentially.

00:26:25:23 - 00:26:48:07
Speaker 1
You're defeating the purpose, doing the same thing with a gas water heater. It's true. You know, physics still stay the same. So does it work with a research pump? Yes, absolutely. Does work with a reset pump. Would I put a reset pump on a heat pump water heater? Sure. Why not? If the consideration or the design is such that I have no choice and I have to have 70ft of pipe?

00:26:48:07 - 00:26:52:01
Speaker 2
If it's like a retrofit situation where you don't really have a choice on where that's going.

00:26:52:01 - 00:27:13:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Put a reset pump on it. But make sure that your research pump is triggered by temperature and not by time, because time is dumb. It just it runs when it needs to run whether it should or shouldn't. So if you can trigger your heat pump with a temperature sensor, then yeah, I mean you're sending water once it starts to drop down in temperature a little bit, sending it back in, reheating it again.

00:27:13:04 - 00:27:32:20
Speaker 1
Remember the heat pump water heater is efficient. Super efficient, and the less of a temperature rise it has to overcome, the more efficient it becomes. So if we're just researching that water back through to maintain tank temperature, it's not going to be as efficient on the electric side as it would if you didn't have a reserve pump, but you're going to save a whole bunch of water.

00:27:33:00 - 00:27:33:20
Speaker 1
So it's a.

00:27:33:20 - 00:27:59:05
Speaker 2
Trade off, and you should be insulating all of your water lines now, like a kind of the old the old way of of roughing in plumbing was you insulated the cold lines and even some people only insulated cold lines in the attic. Whereas now a lot of builders, this is what we're doing. And I would, recommend that everyone do this is insulate all of your water lines in the attic and the wall everywhere, and that's just going to help you out.

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:05:05
Speaker 1
I agree 100%. Anything that you have to maintain at a certain temperature should be including our homes. Yeah.

00:28:05:11 - 00:28:10:22
Speaker 2
And having having those pipes that are running through your attic within conditioned space is also going to.

00:28:10:22 - 00:28:36:22
Speaker 1
Help, you know. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. The worst, the worst thing that we ever did in the building industry is a vented attic in the South. That's absolutely the worst thing we can possibly do for ourselves, for energy, useful and for our health is a vented attic. So all of you guys, including yourself, including toner and things that he pushes, all the builders that are building right now in our building to a better standard, in a healthier standard, are insulating the attics.

00:28:36:22 - 00:28:59:19
Speaker 1
They're they're bringing everything inside the envelope, as we call it, because once you insulate the whole envelope of the home, it becomes much, much easier to control what comes in and what goes out. So there is a no better energy efficiency measure that anyone can undertake. Whatever comes to water heating, space heating. Just being comfortable in your home is air tightness.

00:28:59:19 - 00:29:12:11
Speaker 1
Build a tight and insulated right and God, the amount of things you can accomplish just by by getting those two components perfectly, or at least as close as perfect as you can is incredible.

00:29:12:11 - 00:29:27:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, I I've said this before, I still live in a 1950s house that I remodeled. And yet the only nice thing about the uninsulated attic in my 1950s house that I haven't had a chance to seal up yet, is if I want to take a shower in the summer.

00:29:27:08 - 00:29:28:00
Speaker 1
The water is.

00:29:28:00 - 00:29:29:03
Speaker 2
Hot, the water is already hot.

00:29:29:04 - 00:29:29:18
Speaker 1
Has great.

00:29:29:18 - 00:29:47:19
Speaker 2
Amount to wash my face. The water is already hot. It's already or in the winter if I want some cold drinking water, it's already cold. So what are some you know, what are some downsides to heat pump water heaters or and of downsides is the right word. But what are what are there's just some considerations other than design.

00:29:47:19 - 00:30:07:17
Speaker 2
You know, having a good location on where to put them. I think upfront acquisition cost is the first thing that comes to mind for me. I just because, you know, basic gas and electric water heaters are so cheap. I mean they're like 3 or 400 bucks, right. Tankless water heaters have come down in price. You know, they were I used to tell people, plan on 2500 bucks for a tangle.

00:30:07:17 - 00:30:15:05
Speaker 2
So now you can go get at the tankless with all the parts and fittings for maybe 1500 bucks. Right. Heat pump water heaters still have a higher acquisition cost, right?

00:30:15:08 - 00:30:29:11
Speaker 1
So let's call it an average of 15 to 1800 or 2000 bucks. Right. Ours falls kind of right in the middle of that number. So it's cost comparable to every water heater out there, just about other than the cheap.

00:30:29:11 - 00:30:30:13
Speaker 2
To a tank thing.

00:30:30:18 - 00:30:33:15
Speaker 1
But first cost is is a pet peeve of mine.

00:30:33:17 - 00:30:34:01
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:30:34:03 - 00:30:59:01
Speaker 1
You live in a 1950s home, right? So you know, the efforts you had to undertake to make it more efficient. So you're not spending $800,000 a month on utilities? When we concentrate on first cost, only the operating cost becomes exponentially greater. Right. And when I talk to builders and contractors, they go, oh, but you know, my customer can't afford it.

00:30:59:03 - 00:31:18:17
Speaker 1
If I give them something better, can they afford to live in whatever it is that you're giving them? Does it matter if I can qualify for a for a mortgage and spend every penny I have to just get right where I need to be so I can get my mortgage right if I have to. Now decide, am I going to live in this home comfortably?

00:31:18:17 - 00:31:36:17
Speaker 1
Or which utility bill am I not going to pay because it's costing me a fortune? So yes, the first cost of a heat pump water heater is going to be slightly greater, but the benefits with it being roughly 60 to 70% more efficient, they kind of pay for themselves pretty quickly, right?

00:31:36:19 - 00:31:37:04
Speaker 2
Right.

00:31:37:09 - 00:31:53:04
Speaker 1
The other thing to think about and consider when customers are going out and purchasing a heat pump water heater. Do your research. Learn simple math. BTUs equals wattage times copy or you F1 water heaters times 3.412.

00:31:53:06 - 00:31:56:04
Speaker 2
And tell us what co-op means for people.

00:31:56:06 - 00:32:15:21
Speaker 1
In of performance or uniform energy. Factor on water heaters as you. If so, you want to look and calculate at all heat what water heaters? Just like all air conditioners, are not made the same. Look at what is the wattage of that heater. Multiply that by the copy or the other half of that heater, and then multiply that result by 3.412.

00:32:15:23 - 00:32:41:05
Speaker 1
That's going to give you your BTUs per hour that that that that water heater is actually putting in the water. If your heat pump water heater ad design, which is like 67 degrees ambient temperature, 58 degree water temperature, inlet, 4000 BTUs of heat, guess what? You just bought yourself a really expensive electric because that thing's going to run the electric strip like 90% of the time.

00:32:41:05 - 00:33:04:09
Speaker 1
You may have saved a couple hundred bucks, but you just spend a couple hundred bucks a month more just to run that water heater. But if you get a water heater, that may cost you more, but it's putting out, you know, 11, 12,000 BTUs, 10,000 BTUs, 8000 BTUs of heat into that water. That's now a lot more buffer buffer that backup heat element ever has to kick in.

00:33:04:14 - 00:33:14:13
Speaker 1
And if that water heater can give you that capacity and run on heat pump mode only down to like 2025 degrees, but you put it in conditioned space.

00:33:14:13 - 00:33:16:01
Speaker 2
It's never going to get down to 25 degrees.

00:33:16:01 - 00:33:37:03
Speaker 1
We're going to get there. You're never going to have to use your backup electric, unless you have a whole bunch of people coming over for Christmas or Thanksgiving, and you using a ton of water. So be smart. Do the math, do the research. Most companies nowadays will publish their submittals for their product, where you can go in and see exactly what the performance is.

00:33:37:03 - 00:33:44:18
Speaker 1
How did they test it? What are the test criteria they followed? Do the research. Do the math. An educated consumer is a powerful consumer.

00:33:44:21 - 00:33:52:19
Speaker 2
What about noise on heat pumps? So this is a concern that I've heard from people is the heap of water heaters are noisy. What's your thought on that.

00:33:53:00 - 00:34:15:05
Speaker 1
So to stay positive I will say our water heater is only 40dB of noise when it operates at 100% capacity in heat pump mode. So that's the loudest it's going to get compared that with the roughly 35 to 40dB of noise that your fridge produces. Okay, so if you don't mind having a fridge in your house, you won't mind having one of our water heaters in the house.

00:34:15:05 - 00:34:29:18
Speaker 1
I don't know what noise levels other heaters produce. I can read so I can reads and stories, but I don't have one in my own house of any other brand, so I can't speak for them. Yeah, I have, I have heard I was.

00:34:29:18 - 00:34:33:02
Speaker 2
Going to have, I've heard some and they've, they've got to be approaching double that.

00:34:33:04 - 00:34:37:17
Speaker 1
I've heard ours and it's super quiet. I have not heard other so I can't really speak for them.

00:34:37:19 - 00:34:58:04
Speaker 2
It's a very diplomatic way to put it. Another consideration that I had made a note about was and this is just for a retrofit situation, really is if you're looking to convert to a heap of water heater is just space in your breaker box. So if you're if you're in an older home and then you want to retrofit, you got to make sure that you've got the available capacity in your breaker box.

00:34:58:07 - 00:35:06:18
Speaker 2
What size breaker measures take 30 amp. Okay. So if you're in a house that's already maxed out on your breaker box, maybe a consideration for you.

00:35:06:18 - 00:35:31:10
Speaker 1
I wouldn't do heat pump first. I would follow the simple principle or a audit because you got to figure out what you have weatherize again, make it tight the right, then electrify. I'm in the electrification business. I get paid to sell electricity running appliances. So if I'm telling you first, measure what you have, then tighten up and insulate what you have.

00:35:31:10 - 00:35:54:21
Speaker 1
And once you've done that, only then electrify. I'm doing it because I want the best chance for our electrification products to work. If we electrify first just because there's rebates available, and then go to try to figure out what why is my electric bill high now? You just wasted all that money and you messed up everything for the next ten years for yourself.

00:35:54:23 - 00:35:55:22
Speaker 2
That's great advice.

00:35:55:22 - 00:36:15:09
Speaker 1
Audit Weatherize electrify. If you are in an old home and you really want to electrify, which I love electrification, I think it's better. I'm a hunter. I'm a fisherman. Conservation is in my heart. Conservation is in my blood. I want to be able to use those resources with my kids and my grandkids, and they bring in their kids, right?

00:36:15:09 - 00:36:33:07
Speaker 1
The only way we maintain those resources is if we utilize and conserve them appropriately. Same thing is when it comes to energy, I want to conserve my dollars. So yeah, I'll spend a little bit more money now, but I'll live in a healthier home that cost me less money to operate, and in ten years I'll come out ahead.

00:36:33:10 - 00:36:42:18
Speaker 1
So what I would advise is there is a company and I'll go ahead and namedrop if you're okay with that. Sure. Okay. Spin. So look up spin.

00:36:42:22 - 00:36:44:02
Speaker 2
Great panels.

00:36:44:04 - 00:36:49:19
Speaker 1
Outstanding panels. I don't get paid by them, by the way. Which if Karen is listening. Karen, I'd like if you.

00:36:49:19 - 00:36:51:21
Speaker 2
Want to check if you want us in the chat, go ahead. Yeah.

00:36:51:21 - 00:36:52:06
Speaker 1
Go ahead to.

00:36:52:06 - 00:36:54:12
Speaker 2
Chat. We also accept sponsorships on the podcast.

00:36:54:12 - 00:37:21:11
Speaker 1
But they've designed a product that is really specifically intended for smaller homes or smaller electric service homes to be able to retrofit and electrify, because it now becomes a full energy management system. Typically, size are electric panels to be oversize like way, way oversize. I read an article somewhere. I think it was Rewiring America that published an article.

00:37:21:11 - 00:37:41:00
Speaker 1
They did a multi-year study, and they found that something like barely 25 or 30% of the total capacity of the panel ever gets used at the same time. Yeah. And in some cases, it's even less than that. Yeah. So it is a ridiculously oversize panel. And then you want to electrify and you're like, oh, there's no more room.

00:37:41:00 - 00:37:42:10
Speaker 1
There are rebates right now.

00:37:42:10 - 00:37:42:20
Speaker 2
Audit.

00:37:43:01 - 00:38:03:07
Speaker 1
Yes on it. There are rebates right now. There are tax credits available for changing out your panels to a smart panel. It gives you benefits beyond just being able to electrify with a smaller panel. But for builders, you can build a 4 or 5000 6000 square foot home, which normally you would pay in what, 20 or a four.

00:38:03:07 - 00:38:04:14
Speaker 2
Hundred in service these days.

00:38:04:14 - 00:38:11:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's costing you, what, an extra 4 or $5000. Oh, easy. Put a spin panel in and you can do it with 200 game service.

00:38:11:01 - 00:38:33:04
Speaker 2
Exactly. You actually stole my you stole my next point. We we did a whole podcast on this a few months ago. Obviously I didn't listen to it, but that's okay. Answer okay. Yeah. So we had Dylan Root from savant as a guest. And savant has has an energy monitoring system as well. That's a retrofit product. Product and we talked on that show about how, yeah, the panels are greatly oversize.

00:38:33:04 - 00:38:53:18
Speaker 2
And if you if you're if you're managing your loads, there's no need to have these 400 and panels these days. So fantastic point. I totally agree with you on that. Which. So my next my next comment was actually going to be on new construction. You know, kind of this a lot of space in my panel shouldn't be really a thing.

00:38:53:18 - 00:39:06:23
Speaker 2
Or again, if you're if you're looking at adding all these whatever electric products to move toward electrification and builders are like, man, I should I just don't want to have to put three and 400 panels in my houses. You don't have to.

00:39:07:03 - 00:39:21:02
Speaker 1
You don't have to. Absolutely. And like you said, savant is a great product. It's a it's an energy management system. And there's language in the code that allows for use of an energy management system that completely bypass is the standard formula for size sizing electrical panels.

00:39:21:05 - 00:39:42:06
Speaker 2
It's just it's just it's the mentality of doing things the way they've always been done. And it's it's it's a degree of laziness to be honest with you. It's it's not it's kind of not wanting to change is the reason that electricians and even municipalities that require electrical reviews. So City of Houston doesn't require any kind of load analysis.

00:39:42:06 - 00:39:59:15
Speaker 2
But, you know, here in our area, city of Bellaire, West University memorial villages, all these places require you to submit a panel diagram and a load analysis. And those code officials probably aren't looking at energy management systems. They're just looking at this house needs a 408 panel.

00:39:59:17 - 00:40:02:18
Speaker 1
But the language is there and it's simple and easy to just point to it.

00:40:02:18 - 00:40:12:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah it is. So as a builder, architect, designer, electrician we can just point to that, to those building officials and say, hey, I know everyone else is doing it this way, but here's a better way to do it.

00:40:12:15 - 00:40:36:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. And here's here's the code language that allows it. Now I love it. And it's, it's, you know, we can electrify. And again, I love electrification from just the perspective that if I can put some solar panels on my roof and I can throw a small battery backup on my house, and pretty much everything I run is is efficient and electric, and my home is nice and tight and weatherize.

00:40:36:12 - 00:40:52:07
Speaker 1
I don't care if power goes out for a couple days. When a storm comes through, I'm up and running. Yeah, I'm comfortable and I got four kids. I want to make sure that they're comfortable and that I'm providing for them the best environment that I possibly can. That's my drive. That's my goal.

00:40:52:13 - 00:40:53:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:40:53:07 - 00:41:12:01
Speaker 1
Now, if somebody wants to do it with gas, more power to you. I don't mind. I live in Houston. We are gas. We love gas. Right. It's what pays the bills for most of us, right. The other thing also that we need to pay attention to is that the way trends and the markets are moving, gas isn't getting any cheaper.

00:41:12:03 - 00:41:42:06
Speaker 1
It's still fairly cheap for us, but it's getting more expensive year over year. And as more people choose to electrify, their now becomes less people paying into the infrastructure maintenance of the gas systems. Yet that infrastructure still has to be maintained. So the share that those of us who still have some gas in our homes, which I still have some gas in my home for now, but the share that I now have to pay to maintain that infrastructure becomes greater because there's less people to share it with.

00:41:42:09 - 00:42:04:20
Speaker 1
Right? And as time goes on, it's only going to grow and grow and grow. So start thinking about it now. Start planning on it now. Because like we mentioned earlier, anything planned is cheaper than when you have to go, oh crap, right. It's busted. What do I do now? Well, now you pay whatever they want you to pay because you ain't got no choice, right?

00:42:05:02 - 00:42:34:15
Speaker 2
I mean, when I'm having the conversation about electrification and about choosing these heat pump products, for example, I'm not here in Houston on houses that we're building. I am definitely not having the argument that this is cheaper than gas, because it's not always cheaper than gas. And I'm not always having the conversation of, we've got to eliminate gas from our homes, because, again, people in our market make so much money from gas, oil and gas that that's not the conversation they want to have.

00:42:34:17 - 00:42:58:09
Speaker 2
But I found if we focus on talking about health benefits, indoor air quality, things like that, that's for our market. That's a great that's a great argument. We already have crappy air quality in Houston. What can we do to clean up that air quality in our homes? So I find that's a much better discussion with especially with my higher end home buyers in Houston, Texas.

00:42:58:13 - 00:43:16:15
Speaker 1
Oh, absolutely. There's always going to be a use for gas. When I built my last house, built it all electric, but I still had gas. It's way, way better at heating the hot tub. Right. The electric is. Yeah. So there's still, you know, you want to run a backup generator like, look, we we sell backup batteries at LG.

00:43:16:16 - 00:43:26:03
Speaker 1
They're a great product. Is it for everyone? No. Is it for every place in every municipality? Of course not. But if you want to run a backup generator, you still need gas.

00:43:26:03 - 00:43:33:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, or if you want a gas grill in your backyard, you know, I mean, I mean, even though, let's be honest, charcoal and liberating, so much better. But for for cooking.

00:43:33:15 - 00:43:34:01
Speaker 1
So much.

00:43:34:01 - 00:43:35:03
Speaker 2
Better. Does someone can.

00:43:35:04 - 00:43:37:04
Speaker 1
Own our own a gas grill? I'm sorry. Same.

00:43:37:04 - 00:43:38:00
Speaker 2
Same here.

00:43:38:02 - 00:43:41:21
Speaker 1
I've been converted to a Texan baby or charcoal grill. That's it.

00:43:41:23 - 00:43:58:14
Speaker 2
Exactly. I'd be fine with having no gas in my house, to be honest with you. So it's all right. So let's let's hop over it and talk about heat pump dryers a little bit. It's something that it's newer to the US market. A lot of people have never heard of a heat pump dryer. They're like, what's that? But they've been in use in Europe and Asia for a while now.

00:43:58:19 - 00:44:20:16
Speaker 2
Like a lot of these technologies, these things are coming from these other parts of the world. And, you know, one of the. So one thing about heat pump dryers, yeah, same same technology that we've been talking about with the AC systems, with water heaters, the same concepts. But one of the things that's very different about a heat pump dryer is that they are ductless.

00:44:20:16 - 00:44:41:01
Speaker 2
Again, we've mentioned this earlier. You don't have that four inch dryer vent going through the wall of your home. But I think one of the reasons they were they have been super popular in Europe and Asia in their smaller living quarters, oftentimes in a limited space to put something they don't always have a way to run dry air vents wherever they need to put a clothes dryer.

00:44:41:03 - 00:45:06:22
Speaker 2
It's a space consideration. It's a design consideration over there for them. And so they've caught on quickly over there because you can stick a heat pump dryer, a standalone dryer in a lot of different places. And so for them, it's been partially a space thing. But for us, again, not having that penetration through your envelope is is a huge thing for me as someone who's trying to build a tight home, to me, that's one of the biggest benefits of that.

00:45:06:22 - 00:45:18:11
Speaker 1
And like we talked about earlier, you're nodding, adding a fan that sucks air out of your home that you spent money to condition, right. Just so that you can replace it with unconditioned, nasty air coming through all the crevices.

00:45:18:13 - 00:45:18:20
Speaker 2
Right.

00:45:19:00 - 00:45:39:02
Speaker 1
So design consideration is aside because, yes, most, most of the world does not build the way we do. They don't build wood wood frame. They will will build with concrete and block. Right. It's a lot harder to install ducts but energy is also more expensive. Why dump the energy out after I spent money to condition it? So they are ductless.

00:45:39:02 - 00:46:02:16
Speaker 1
They are windless, so they simply whatever air goes in stays inside the space, but they also dehumidifier that air, so they help cool the air a little bit. They dehumidifier the air and then most of them nowadays they just simply need, you know, a standard 115 volt circuit, 15, 20 amp in some cases depends on the manufacturer and they're going to need a three quarter inch drain.

00:46:02:19 - 00:46:14:07
Speaker 1
It becomes easier. Like you said, it becomes easier to manage those penetrations. There are also now Campbell units that you know we have one. There's a few other manufacturers that have one that work at.

00:46:14:11 - 00:46:15:10
Speaker 2
Washer dryer all.

00:46:15:10 - 00:46:16:15
Speaker 1
In one, a washer dryer.

00:46:16:15 - 00:46:17:03
Speaker 2
Unit one.

00:46:17:03 - 00:46:41:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, they are intelligent. They have the ability to weigh the load. They have the ability and sensors to actually sense the type of fabric and the color of fabric that's there. They automatically weigh in the exact amount of detergent needed, the exact amount of either bleach or softener needed based on the weight of the load and the type of fabric they complete the wash cycle, and then they immediately switch over to the drying cycle.

00:46:41:15 - 00:47:07:13
Speaker 1
And once it's done, it notifies you through your app that hey, loads done. Now, in the past there have been again, technology starts. It's a good idea, but maybe it doesn't work as well in practice as it did on paper, but is slowly evolves. So in the past, one of the biggest complaints about heat pump dryers was that they just didn't dry the clothes.

00:47:07:17 - 00:47:09:05
Speaker 2
Yep, a couple of things.

00:47:09:05 - 00:47:31:17
Speaker 1
One, yes, they did not have sensors, so they did not dry as efficiently and as effectively as, let's say, a gas and electric dryer. But the other is perception. When I grab a piece of cloth that is still slightly damp, but you know, 100 degrees, 120 degrees, it feels dry.

00:47:31:19 - 00:47:32:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, because it's hot.

00:47:32:21 - 00:47:56:19
Speaker 1
Because it's hot. But if you've ever had to clean a lint filter after every use, they really mean clean your lint filter after every use. Guess what? All that lint is? Is the clothes you spend money on falling apart, getting hot, and then getting caught in your own filter and ended up in the trash. If you look at some of these newer products, the washer dryer combos are just the heat pump dryers.

00:47:56:21 - 00:48:15:15
Speaker 1
That lint filter has to be clean maybe once a month. It's much, much gentler on your clothes. Your clothes last a lot longer. Yes, when you pull the clothes out because they're cooler, they will feel like they're slightly damp. Fold them or just let them outside. Let them sit on your couch for five minutes. You no longer feel the dampness.

00:48:15:15 - 00:48:40:07
Speaker 1
They're no longer damp. Yeah, because they have sensors built in now. They adjust the runtime to make sure that the clothes are dry the way they're supposed to. So technology has has changed. It's grown. And if you look at, let's say, for example, LG's combo washer and dryer, it's a single unit. It's five cubic feet. Right. So I can wash a king sized comforter in that thing without problems.

00:48:40:09 - 00:49:00:13
Speaker 1
And it's small footprint. It's basically the size of a single unit. Right now. The cost of them has come down drastically. So now you can buy that combo for slightly cheaper than buying separate front load washer and front load dryer. That can do the same thing. Oh that's crazy. So it becomes actually cheaper to go this way now.

00:49:00:15 - 00:49:22:10
Speaker 1
And for a builder it only needs a 15 amp 120 amp circuit. Well that's it. Now you're saving the 30 spot that you needed for your heat pump AC, or you want to use induction cooktop or something. There's you a 30 amp circuit right there that you no longer need in your utility room. And you can use it somewhere else, or you can just eliminate it altogether.

00:49:22:12 - 00:49:39:07
Speaker 2
Well that's fantastic. You know, Matt Risinger put in a another brand. I think it was a melee that he put in his house here a few years ago when he built his new house. And I was asking him how he like that. He said yeah. Again, this was probably what, five or 6 or 6 years ago he built for that house.

00:49:39:11 - 00:49:58:21
Speaker 2
Yes. And he and he did make the comment. Yeah. The clothes don't feel like they're getting completely dry. And he said that they usually end up running them a little bit longer, running a short cycle or something like that. But he did mention that again, it's that perception of, of of not being dry because of the temperature. Yeah.

00:49:58:22 - 00:50:09:20
Speaker 2
So yeah, my, my, my kids who take their clothes out of the dryer and just leave them in the basket for three days before they touch them. You know, maybe they should start folding those right away instead of, just leaving them piled.

00:50:09:20 - 00:50:16:02
Speaker 1
Up next to his, steam closet. That would be a cool, cool product to talk to you about. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I want one. Yeah.

00:50:16:02 - 00:50:38:06
Speaker 2
So I love I love all of LG's laundry products have really been fantastic actually. We've been promoting those to our customers for the last few years because the the laundry towers that you guys make or early fantastic products, you know, not not the heat, but I haven't installed the heat pump unit yet, but but the, the traditional electric laundry towers are really great products.

00:50:38:08 - 00:51:02:09
Speaker 2
So one of the things I've heard also in the past, again, this technology is evolving, is that the capacity on these units, on the, on the heat pump dryers isn't as large. But I actually doing some research before our podcast today, and I was surfing the LG website and I saw that you guys have a it's like an eight point something cubic foot, or maybe it's seven and a half or eight and here it goes, 7.8ft³ dryer.

00:51:02:09 - 00:51:23:21
Speaker 2
Now, which is a pretty standard sized dryer. Or, you know, on the larger side. Now there's some of the electric and gas companies. They have like a 9 square foot or 9 cubic foot behemoth, but, you know, a 7.8ft³ dryer is a pretty typical size clothes dryer. So that argument of, you know, they're they're not as big, not as high capacity as the other the technology is.

00:51:23:22 - 00:51:26:02
Speaker 2
That's not really an argument anymore, you know.

00:51:26:02 - 00:51:42:06
Speaker 1
Not any longer. Yeah. I mean, your typical European or Caribbean market product will be much, much smaller. That same thing goes for the stove. The same thing goes for the fridge. That same thing goes for the stove. The same thing goes for the fridge. It goes for the washer and dryers. Right? They just have a lot less space to work with.

00:51:42:06 - 00:52:03:05
Speaker 1
We're in America, we're in Texas. Everything's bigger baby. So yeah, having the ability to have that five cubic foot washer, the 7.8ft³ dryer heat pump, it just gives you, again, the ability to throw that, you know, comforter in, wash it, dry it without having to go and pay a dry cleaner. I wash my comforters at least like every other week.

00:52:03:05 - 00:52:06:23
Speaker 1
But yeah, about other folks. But it gets pretty expensive if you can't do it on your own.

00:52:07:04 - 00:52:33:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, for builders who are looking to adapt more of this technology into their into their products, into their new homes, at least for custom builders I can speak to specifically because that's what I do. We have to have these conversations with our customers to convince them to use certain products. You know, we can say, hey, our standard spec has to do this, but a lot of times the homeowner is still going to say, yeah, but I want, I want gas.

00:52:33:07 - 00:52:58:13
Speaker 2
I've always had gas, I want gas or I want regular electric, I don't want that heat pump stuff right. So we have to guide people and give them the information to make these decisions. So how would you, you know, recommend that builders approach this with their clients without coming off, you know, especially in the Houston market without coming off as, you know, two Greeny or two, you know anti gas.

00:52:58:13 - 00:53:10:11
Speaker 2
You know we we we've touched on some of this already but kind of to wrap it up, what do you say to you. What is the most compelling argument for builders to make with the homeowners about making these transitions.

00:53:10:13 - 00:53:27:19
Speaker 1
Health and resiliency. It all comes down to health and resiliency. I've said it 100 times. I'll say it 100 times. Again, you know, in the next week is the gas we cook with today any different than it was 30 years ago? No it's not. So why is it all of a sudden a health hazard? Because we build homes tighter, right.

00:53:28:01 - 00:53:56:22
Speaker 1
Energy costs more, sort of keep more energy in our pockets and in our homes. We have to build them tighter to keep that energy from flowing out. By building homes tighter, to keep the energy from flowing out uncontrollably. We now keep more of the bad stuff in. So the less bad stuff we introduce into our homes, the healthier our indoor environment becomes, the cheaper it becomes to clean that air, to keep it filtered, to keep it fresh.

00:53:56:22 - 00:54:19:16
Speaker 1
Right? We know that indoor air is far more polluted than outside air. Why? It's because we live in it. Every home is perfect. It's perfectly built, perfectly people in it, and we as people just screw it all up, right? Because we all have our own preferences. We are the cause of mold and mildew in homes. It's not the home, it's us.

00:54:19:18 - 00:54:43:07
Speaker 1
It's how we live. And you can't get around that so you can control for it. Health is a huge aspect and it's something that I would absolutely approach. First with home buyers is educate the home buyer on what are the health benefits, why do we build the way we build now? Secondly, is resiliency. Like you said, you don't want to come off as greeny.

00:54:43:09 - 00:55:01:02
Speaker 1
I don't want to come off as Greeny. I'm not Greeny, right? I don't want to electrify my house so I can hug some trees. I like trees, I don't have anything against them. They give me a nice shade. You find a nice like true oak. Not these spindly oaks we have down here in Houston, but like a real oak with big leaves.

00:55:01:02 - 00:55:27:17
Speaker 1
And sit down underneath it and spring. Man, it sounds like magical, right? But that doesn't mean that I want to build my house around the fact that I want to save a bunch of trees, but if I can build my house to be comfortable, if I can build my house to be resilient so that no matter what happens, me and my family are safe, we're cool in summer, we're warm in the winter, we're comfortable, we have water, we have food, and I save a couple of trees as a result of that.

00:55:27:20 - 00:55:28:19
Speaker 1
I'm not mad.

00:55:28:21 - 00:55:29:18
Speaker 2
Right?

00:55:29:20 - 00:55:43:02
Speaker 1
Right. So let's just approach it by being honest and by educating. And if a consumer insists on having gas and that's what they want to go with, more power to you. You know that's a beautiful thing about this country is we have options.

00:55:43:07 - 00:55:46:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's not for everyone. And we can't we can't force you into it.

00:55:47:03 - 00:56:14:11
Speaker 1
Nor would you want to. You know, it's like it's just an option. And if we presented as an option, people do take it and it's crazy. Nahb did a study in 2019. Their own study showed that 75% plus of consumers were willing to pay 18% or more premium for a healthier, more efficient home. Now, I don't know why energy keeps fighting that.

00:56:14:11 - 00:56:39:17
Speaker 1
It's their own study and it benefits them as well. But then they also did another study, roughly one to say maybe a year and a half, two years ago, in that particular study, asked consumers and builders if you picked and they had like a list of 15 different improvements on what would you pay more money for in your new home or a retrofit of your home?

00:56:39:19 - 00:56:46:23
Speaker 1
What are the highest priority things, or the things you would spend the most money money on? And guess what? The top three things were?

00:56:47:03 - 00:56:47:20
Speaker 2
Air conditioning.

00:56:47:20 - 00:57:09:23
Speaker 1
Heat pump, air conditioning, heat pump, water heater, and solar. Solar came in third. Wow. People are more likely to spend money in installing an efficient heat pump system to keep their home cool and hot. A water heater that's heat pump operated. Then they would solar and then very, very close. After that was heat pump washers and dryers, things like that.

00:57:09:23 - 00:57:30:07
Speaker 1
But heat pump technology is on everybody's mind. So they did another study and said, hey, you know what? We want to find out about our builders. What are they willing to put in to make a home more efficient and more attractive to the millennial buyer? Guess what the top three were? Heat pump, space heating, heat pump, water heating, solar.

00:57:30:09 - 00:57:52:09
Speaker 1
Wow. I mean, we're all talking the same language. Consumers are asking for this. All we have to do is educate them and show them that it's an option. If we don't tell them that it's an option, then of course they're not going to buy it. They don't know we offer it. Yeah. So let's just talk to folks. Let's find out what their what matters to them.

00:57:52:12 - 00:58:20:11
Speaker 2
I think so much of it is education is builder education. Right. Because you know, I would bet that a lot of people doing that survey or a lot of production home builders, because I've actually seen a lot of production home builders be much quicker adopters of some of this stuff than custom builders, I think educate educating custom builders and like spec homes, kind of semi-custom builders is really the challenge in it.

00:58:20:12 - 00:58:43:17
Speaker 2
Maybe we aren't as big a market as production homes, right? But our buyers typically have a lot of money to spend. But I find I'm gonna make a big generalization here. Most custom home builders are not educators and are not well-educated on this stuff, and so they're more likely just to say gas is better. You know, gas stoves are better, gas furnaces are better.

00:58:43:21 - 00:59:14:11
Speaker 2
It's what I've always used. It's kind of more of that curmudgeon attitude, so to speak. And I say that because I'm a custom builder, I'm on GBA board. I'm around a lot of other custom builders. So this is what I hear. I go to education events for the Builders Association, and this is the this is the the mumbling that I hear every time, every time electrification is presented, every time new technology is presented, I hear this grumbling of, you know, that's greenie weenie stuff, that stuff.

00:59:14:12 - 00:59:50:09
Speaker 2
You know, people in Houston want gas. So really, all that to say, I think the biggest battle that we have is educating custom builders, remodelers spec home builders, because the production builders have already been educated, that those guys on a national level already are already going this direction. Right? So the more that, you know, hopefully we can do as a podcast that the more that you can do as a rep for LG, the more these companies can do to educate custom builders, the better off we're going to be and the more this stuff's going to get adopted for the market that that we're in.

00:59:50:09 - 01:00:17:12
Speaker 1
That's actually. Yeah, that's that's perfect. What you just said. You know, my job at LG is not to sell LG products. My job at LG is same as it was at the previous company. My job is to educate, to advise and to help folks find the most efficient way to arrive from point A to point B, and if it's so, and during that process and during that journey, they look at it and go, oh, you have products that fit this need.

01:00:17:13 - 01:00:40:23
Speaker 1
Great. Here's a number. I'll put you in touch with my folks and they can sell you the product you need. But my job is to educate them and I would also actually go back and say, I don't think that majority of custom home builders are uneducated when it comes to this. I think they are mis educated, and the biggest culprit in that is I'm going to call out my own industry.

01:00:41:01 - 01:01:05:18
Speaker 1
We are the biggest culprit because we have spent decades building systems and plants to produce those systems and change costs a lot of money. So a lot of times we mis educate, sometimes due to our own ignorance and sometimes due to whatever reasons that there may be, we may educate builders and consumers into, oh, this is just bad.

01:01:05:18 - 01:01:27:11
Speaker 1
You don't want to use this. Why? Because someone else is making it because it's going to cost you a lot more money to switch over. But to your point, production builders and builders are moving in that direction. Not because they want to be greedy, but because they have a lot of money and they don't look to the next project in the next ten projects, or even next 5000 projects.

01:01:27:12 - 01:01:41:13
Speaker 1
They're looking five, ten years from now. They're looking to see, because they're mostly publicly traded. Companies need to continue growing. They need to continue showing profitability. So they spend a lot of money to research market trends and see where things are moving, and.

01:01:41:13 - 01:01:51:14
Speaker 2
They care about what the consumers want there. They look at those surveys that you mentioned and they see the people want solar, they want heat pump systems. They see that, and so they start backing it.

01:01:51:17 - 01:01:58:09
Speaker 1
Who were the first companies to start bringing you in subway tile and white cabinets. Production builders.

01:01:58:09 - 01:01:58:20
Speaker 2
Right.

01:01:58:22 - 01:02:20:00
Speaker 1
Who were the first companies that backed away from subway tile and white cabinets? Production builders. And it's crazy because about six months to a year after they switch everything away, you start reading articles, white cabinets and subway tile. No longer the house it was two years ago. It's like, yeah, they're ahead of the game because they're interviewing people.

01:02:20:00 - 01:02:43:12
Speaker 1
They're constantly surveying people. They have marketing departments whose sole job is to do nothing but to talk to people who will be buying homes, and not now, but five years from now. They talking to these young kids that are just now in high school because they're looking at a going five years from now, you're going to be home buyers, and we want you to be our home buyers.

01:02:43:14 - 01:03:00:02
Speaker 1
So what do you want? That's all we got to do. We got to educate custom builders because like you said, your customers have money. Your customers had a choice. They could go to a production builder and get whatever they get, or they can come to a custom builder, get a better quality made product, made exactly the way they want it.

01:03:00:04 - 01:03:18:18
Speaker 1
So that is built around their lives and they don't have to build their lives around the product that they're buying a home. We just have to educate them like who would in their right mind, sit there and go, yeah, don't worry about the air. I breathe. That's not important. Just put whatever you can. Make sure I get this really pretty $30,000 granite countertops.

01:03:18:18 - 01:03:40:19
Speaker 1
That's the more important piece. Why did they pick it? Because every single showroom I've ever gone to. And trust me, I've built several houses for myself through various different builders, and I've built one of my own. But every showroom I go to, I have choices. Tiles, carpets, finishes, paints, granite countertops, lighting fixtures, doorknobs for crying out loud. The trim around the carpet.

01:03:40:19 - 01:04:00:14
Speaker 1
I can pick and choose whatever I want, however I want it. There's one, well, actually two pieces that are never shown. I never see, and I never know that I have a choice on air conditioning, heating, water heating. They're just there somewhere. Yeah, all I know is I got cool air and I got. I got hot water. That's it.

01:04:00:14 - 01:04:00:22
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:04:01:03 - 01:04:02:17
Speaker 2
You only care about it when it goes wrong.

01:04:02:19 - 01:04:24:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Give them a choice. Educate the consumer. Like, one thing that we've started doing as a manufacturer is we educate, we spend our time to educate the home builder and the salespeople and the home builders office. They need to know how to talk about these things because no one's coming in and educating them. How can we expect them to educate the consumer?

01:04:24:16 - 01:04:44:10
Speaker 1
So it's like we as an industry have to do a better job. We're trying to. And as the generations change, millennials are the biggest home buying block right now. Gen Z will be a very big home buying block within the next 5 to 7 years. They are very educated. They grew up with a computer attached to their hip.

01:04:44:10 - 01:05:03:13
Speaker 1
Everything they need to know. They can ask ChatGPT Gemini and it'll give them the information. It's like you go out and you look up and you just search some things. Now on Google, man, that Gemini comes out and gives you the information. You're like, wow. Yeah. Like I, I'm an expert at Google and I can't find that stuff.

01:05:03:13 - 01:05:13:00
Speaker 1
Half that stuff that it comes up with. So these folks are educated. We have to be just as educated as they are so that we can continue being relevant.

01:05:13:01 - 01:05:19:03
Speaker 2
Yep. So when they ask us the questions, we appear that we know what we're doing and hopefully we do it.

01:05:19:09 - 01:05:24:15
Speaker 1
Or what we're doing, and grab a phone and look it up, you know, we have the same power that they do.

01:05:24:16 - 01:05:47:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's no reason to be ignorant these days with all the information that's at our fingertips. Absolutely no. So I mean, education is is one of the big reasons that that, you know, we're here, here doing this podcast. It's the reason I started this. It was, you know, we wanted to educate homebuilders and homeowners about, you know, the right way to go about building a custom home, remodel your home or choosing the right products to go in the home.

01:05:47:13 - 01:05:48:15
Speaker 2
And that's that's why we're here.

01:05:48:19 - 01:05:49:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely.

01:05:49:20 - 01:05:57:01
Speaker 2
So Voya, thank you so much for being here again with us. I know that we'll have you back again to cover some of these other topics sometime very soon.

01:05:57:07 - 01:06:17:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. I'm more than happy to be here. Like I said, I'm a building science geek at heart. That's what I do. That's what I love. So anything that I can do to help, not just to help spread the news that I learn at these events and places that I go to. But there's a lot of things that I learn from these conversations as well.

01:06:17:01 - 01:06:34:06
Speaker 1
You know, it helps me be more efficient and better at what I do. And I think it's it's a really good thing. So yeah, I would be more than happy to come back and we can talk about a lot of different technologies because crazy stuff is happening, man. I mean, you know, heat pump technology. We think like, okay, yeah, we figured it out.

01:06:34:06 - 01:06:46:17
Speaker 1
It works. It's great. You know, it's like there's products coming down the pipe that are good to like -40 in their products coming down the pipe. They're using AI to optimize their processes and to optimize how efficient they are and how they operate.

01:06:46:20 - 01:06:48:01
Speaker 2
Oh man. It's fun.

01:06:48:01 - 01:07:11:07
Speaker 1
There's products that are coming out that are like, you know, our products are capable of using solar as it's converted, but there's products coming out that can literally like have onboard solar number batteries. There's so many different things that are just coming down the pipe right now, because it's what consumers are asking for that it's going to make our lives just that much better, that much easier, but also that much more complicated.

01:07:11:07 - 01:07:12:22
Speaker 1
And we have to stay ahead of it.

01:07:13:00 - 01:07:15:07
Speaker 2
Awesome. Are you going to be at IBM here in a few weeks?

01:07:15:11 - 01:07:22:07
Speaker 1
Yes, I'm going to be a DBA, or at least I think I'm going to be at IBM's supposed to be there. There's like 17 or on my schedule right now.

01:07:22:07 - 01:07:23:02
Speaker 2
You're going to all of them.

01:07:23:02 - 01:07:26:22
Speaker 1
And yeah, I'm going to be everywhere from cables, IBS, the EBA and everything.

01:07:26:22 - 01:07:31:04
Speaker 2
And yeah, we'll have to catch up again. And EBA like last year. Go eat dinner again.

01:07:31:10 - 01:07:50:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Let's eat dinner. And I mean, heck, let's, let's bring some mics and let's go, let's go talk to some folks out there because there's a lot of smart builders and a lot of smart folks at IBA, you know, and believe it or not, like when I looked at IBA and the membership of IBA, which for those folks that don't know who IBA is, is the energy efficient.

01:07:50:08 - 01:07:51:06
Speaker 2
Building or energy.

01:07:51:07 - 01:08:10:02
Speaker 1
Energy and Environmental Building Alliance, it's basically a bunch of builders that build really, really well built homes and have kind of made a pact to say that, hey, you know what? We're not going to hold these secrets to ourselves. We're going to help each other, and we're going to help industry be more profitable and build it better. A lot of those guys are from Texas.

01:08:10:02 - 01:08:10:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:08:10:19 - 01:08:23:09
Speaker 1
A lot of them are from Texas. It's like I started looking around like, you know, we are a gas capital of the world. But maybe when it comes to electrification, we're doing better than most. Yeah. And we're just doing it quietly. We're just sneaking in.

01:08:23:11 - 01:08:28:23
Speaker 2
So last year was the first time that I've been to the EBA conference, and I'm excited to get back this next year. Learn some more.

01:08:29:00 - 01:08:35:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was my third. This will be my fourth. And it's it's always a great learning experience.

01:08:35:02 - 01:08:36:20
Speaker 2
Cool. Look forward to seeing you there.

01:08:36:22 - 01:08:37:12
Speaker 1
Absolutely.

01:08:37:13 - 01:08:46:06
Speaker 2
All right. Well thanks again for coming. And thank all of you guys for checking out the Your Project Shepherd podcast. Thank you for being with us today and we will see you next time. Bye bye.