00:00:05:16 - 00:00:29:22 Speaker 1 Hello friends. Welcome to the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson, and we are here to teach that every successful construction project has four components demonstrated by the simple drawing of a house. The foundation is proper planning. The left wall is your team. The right walls, communication and the roof is proper execution. Have all four of these components in place and your project will succeed. 00:00:30:00 - 00:00:52:23 Speaker 1 We are here to help professionals and homeowners alike make the best decisions about designing, planning, and building custom homes. If you'd like more information about how Shepherd can help you with your project or business, visit us at your project shepherd.com. And now, here's today's episode. 00:00:53:01 - 00:01:08:18 Speaker 1 Hey friends, welcome back to a new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson, and today I am joined by Kenneth Stevens. He is the principal or the managing partner with, Stevens, Reed and Armstrong, is that correct? Did I get that right? 00:01:08:20 - 00:01:12:16 Speaker 2 100%. Some people say Stevens, but you nailed it. So. All right. 00:01:12:18 - 00:01:19:10 Speaker 1 So, you guys, you personally focus on on construction litigation and construction issues, right? 00:01:19:10 - 00:01:35:12 Speaker 2 That's correct. So we're a litigation boutique. So primarily what we're doing is disputes between, business entities. And then, you know, the different partners kind of focus on different things. So my area is construction litigation primarily litigation and arbitration. 00:01:35:16 - 00:01:39:10 Speaker 1 And some other partners in the firm that do different areas of the law, different focus. Exactly. 00:01:39:10 - 00:01:58:15 Speaker 2 So one of my partners primarily focuses on employment, labor and employment issues. So it's kind of a good mix a good pairing. And then another one is a kind of a general commercial litigation guy. So any kind of breach of contract disputes, disputes between partnerships and stuff like that. Sometimes when the businesses break down, you know, he's kind of the go to guy for that. 00:01:58:17 - 00:02:01:13 Speaker 2 And then he also does some injury defense work as well. So. 00:02:01:19 - 00:02:08:00 Speaker 1 And do you primarily work on, on the side of homeowners or of contractors? Mostly. 00:02:08:00 - 00:02:20:13 Speaker 2 It's mostly contractors. You know, a lot of what I do, I would say probably 90% of my practice is representing contractors in both, commercial and residential jobs on the public and private side. 00:02:20:15 - 00:02:38:10 Speaker 1 You're a very, prolific poster on LinkedIn. That's how I originally found you. And then we met, I don't know, a year or so ago and had lunch and chatted and, but I've been following your your LinkedIn stuff really close. Yeah. And, you know, what I like is that you post a lot of very good, helpful information. 00:02:38:10 - 00:02:46:21 Speaker 1 You know, some people treat LinkedIn like it's Facebook or whatever, and they post funny stuff and spam all the time, but you actually post a lot of good, helpful information. Well, I. 00:02:46:21 - 00:03:08:00 Speaker 2 Appreciate that, man. I mean, you know, sometimes you post and it kind of feels like it might be going in a vacuum because maybe some folks like it or whatever, but you never know. Like what? The full extent of the full impact, you know, of what the posts are. But I try to post stuff that, from a construction standpoint, you know, some people might know, but they're just not really thinking through all the way. 00:03:08:00 - 00:03:24:02 Speaker 2 And then sometimes it's just stuff that maybe people don't know, you know what I mean? And I'm just kind of like, as I experience different things, while working on cases or I start to see patterns or trends, I just try to post something that contractors can look at and be like, you know what? Maybe I haven't thought about that. 00:03:24:04 - 00:03:29:21 Speaker 2 Or maybe I have, and I really need to get on top of doing this because, you know, obviously it's a it's an issue. 00:03:29:21 - 00:03:43:13 Speaker 1 So yeah, I always read all those. And someone told me one time, if, if an attorney is giving is giving out free advice, he should probably listen to it because it's better to to listen to that free advice now then, then have to pay for it by the hour later. 00:03:43:13 - 00:04:02:08 Speaker 2 Exactly. You know what's crazy? That was there's a bunch of folks that will pay for the advice and then still not know it. It's, That's even if it were a while, you know, I if folks date that, I advise them, hey, don't do this or do that. And then, you know, maybe a few months later, I'm like, well, here we are. 00:04:02:08 - 00:04:19:15 Speaker 2 You know, this is like, I kind of told you this was covered, you know? So, is this one of those things, you know, you can put it out there and hope that is helpful. And I think for a lot of people, it is, you know, I have had folks hit me up and say, hey, man, I saw one of your posts and, you know, it made me go in and redo my contracts, right? 00:04:19:15 - 00:04:35:03 Speaker 2 Or it made me, you know, update this or I appreciate it, that I get messages, even sometimes actual mail. Right. Which is, which is pretty cool to get something in the mail and you read it and I just, you know, I appreciate it. A post on this, I was like, that's that's pretty neat, man. 00:04:35:06 - 00:04:55:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's kind of what we experienced too. You know, we we do the podcast and post stuff on social media. And I never know really what the reach is. You know, you can you can see the views and things like that, but but you don't really know what the weather is. And, it always makes you feel good to go to an event and have people come up to you and say, hey, I listen your podcast and I learn something from that episode. 00:04:55:22 - 00:05:22:14 Speaker 2 And yeah, I mean, I think there's reach and then there's impact, right? And so reach is one thing I can look and see, you know, oh, this just reached x number of people according to these metrics. But out of those people I don't know how many people I've impacted. Right. And I think just like you said, when when I'm at different conferences and stuff and folks coming up and saying, hey, really like this, or, you know, this really helped me, well, then I know I've impacted that person. 00:05:22:16 - 00:05:24:06 Speaker 2 So. 00:05:24:07 - 00:05:44:19 Speaker 1 So what I wanted to, to talk to you today about is, is about, you know, reasons that contractors and homeowners get into disputes. You know, what are those most, most common issues that arise? And kind of go back to LinkedIn. You made a post a couple days ago that I enjoyed, and I kind of copied on here so I could kind of reference it while we're talking. 00:05:44:21 - 00:05:52:20 Speaker 1 But you made a post about accountability. And, I mean, that's honestly, that's something that's lacking in society in general right now. 00:05:52:20 - 00:05:54:14 Speaker 2 Right? Jeez. 00:05:54:16 - 00:06:14:13 Speaker 1 You know, with with construction issues, you know, mistakes are going to happen. And rather than, you know, the the point of what you're saying is, is, is rather than, you know, trying to cover yourself and find ways to get out of it and hoping somebody doesn't notice it. And then if you get caught, you know, everybody lawyer is up. 00:06:14:13 - 00:06:21:20 Speaker 1 It's just it's always going to be a lot cheaper just to go ahead and address the problem, own up to it and go on down the road. 00:06:21:20 - 00:06:43:07 Speaker 2 Right. Exactly 100%. And that's the point that I was making in the post. I think that, you know, a lot of times things happen, you know, and people were human, right? I mean, part of what makes us human is, is the ability to make a mistake. And then figure out a way to correct it. Right? I mean, you learn from your mistakes, the whole nine. 00:06:43:09 - 00:07:10:11 Speaker 2 But I think we are in an era, just you don't ever own up to the mistake, and it makes things way more expensive. I mean, I will see something that it may have been a $10,000 error on a, you know, $500,000 project. And if somebody had just said, you know what, my bad, I stepped in it, you know, take I'll take the hit. 00:07:10:13 - 00:07:36:18 Speaker 2 Whoa. It's a $10,000 mistake, maybe 15,000. Everybody you know moves on, calls it a day. That just doesn't happen as often as it should, you know? And then by the time it gets to me, there's 100,000, $200,000 in damages on a $500,000 project. And then I'm sifting through all this, these communications, all this different stuff, and then you get down to the root of it and it's like, wait, this is this is what it was, right? 00:07:36:18 - 00:08:01:01 Speaker 2 I mean, you all waited too long to pour a concrete. That was it, you know, like, and and if we acknowledge that in the beginning just would have saved everybody, a lot of time and a lot of headache. And so, I'm really encouraging contractors and, and their lawyers on the front end to say, hey, let's try to start forcing the issue a little more because I don't think people are as self accountable anymore. 00:08:01:01 - 00:08:16:19 Speaker 2 I think that that might be a, you know, just a societal thing, or there's a generational thing. I don't know. But it used to be, you know, it was self accountable. People felt like kind of this sense of if I did it and I know I did it, I'm not going to pay a lawyer to continue to fight or whatever. 00:08:16:19 - 00:08:39:03 Speaker 2 I'm just going to say, you know, this is it, I did it. I think that now we have to force that. And so I think there's ways contractually on the front end to say, hey, if an issue arises, this is how we're going to deal with it, right? And we're going to all elect some person or go get some person, and that person's going to make a decision, and we're all going to live by that decision, and that person's going to be completely neutral. 00:08:39:05 - 00:09:11:21 Speaker 2 And this is how we're going to deal with that. And I think that for at least smaller disputes, that's a way to keep things from ballooning into something much larger, because I could tell you when there's a mistake and there is no accountability and everybody starts lawyering up. And experts, the only people that are winning in that situation are the lawyers and the experts that are getting paid all this money to deal with the problem or figure out what somebody's sitting there paying them already knows that they stepped in it, that it's their fault, you know? 00:09:11:23 - 00:09:12:21 Speaker 2 So yeah. 00:09:12:23 - 00:09:29:18 Speaker 1 I mean, I get hired as an expert all the time. And, I look at the situation, I'm like, man, this this was a $5,000 fix six, six months or a year ago. And and now you're paying me $5,000 on top of whatever you're paying the attorneys and everybody else, you know, it's crazy. 00:09:29:18 - 00:09:52:00 Speaker 2 It's madness, man. And, you know, I try to I try to tell people even before I probably have more conversations that are statements against interest than than I care to admit. Right? I mean, somebody sit across from me just like we are right now. They give me an issue. Maybe it's maybe it's $50,000, maybe it's a $30,000 dispute, or maybe it's $1 million dispute. 00:09:52:00 - 00:10:14:17 Speaker 2 And I tell them outright, this is what you need to do. You know, you don't need to pay me. You know, if you do this and you do it right, y'all go about it and resolve it. You will be much happier in six months, because what's going to happen is you're going to pay me X amount of dollars over the next six months, and this isn't going to be done yet, and you're going to be upset that you're still paying me. 00:10:14:17 - 00:10:33:12 Speaker 2 And there's no resolution to it because the wheels of justice turn very slowly. Right? That's just the way that it is. I mean, whether it's arbitration or whether it's litigation, it's going to take time and it's going to be costly. And so I tell people before you jump into this water, make sure that you are ready to swim. 00:10:33:14 - 00:10:43:02 Speaker 2 And you know, like that you've exhausted all of the remedies, because once you do this, you kind of you're kind of committed to it. So. So yeah. 00:10:43:02 - 00:11:01:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I got hired on one recently where, it was it was about to go to the attorneys and somebody said, hey, somebody outside of the situation said, hey, I know Curtis. He does a lot of expert witness work. Why don't you get him to come in and kind of help you decide? You know, how how how to remedy this before? 00:11:01:08 - 00:11:21:18 Speaker 1 Because has the attorneys and it was it was so simple. It was just the builder knew what he needed to do. He'd just been kicking the can down the road, hoping it would go away. And the homeowners just sitting there getting matter and matter and matter and and so they brought me in and I got both people to say, okay, whatever Curtis says is the way out of this, that's what we're going to do. 00:11:21:18 - 00:11:26:11 Speaker 1 Exactly. And guess what? 2 or 3 weeks it was done and it was it was over. 00:11:26:11 - 00:11:28:02 Speaker 2 And a lot of headaches. 00:11:28:04 - 00:11:54:17 Speaker 1 If if the builder would have just done what he was supposed to do to begin with, that that money would have been never spent. Exactly. So exactly. It's always cheaper to work something out than it is to lawyer up. So sometimes the blame for a situation is is shared, or should be shared like, like if, if you have a set of plans that there's a conflict on the plans, maybe the architect and the engineer, you know, there's there's a conflict there. 00:11:54:17 - 00:12:11:16 Speaker 1 And the builder kind of didn't go to them and kind of did his own thing to figure it out. And now you've got a problem. You know, sometimes I tell people to put their put your heads together. Architect, engineer, builder. Hey, we were all wrong here. Let's all kick in 2500 bucks and make it and make this thing go away. 00:12:11:16 - 00:12:14:06 Speaker 1 Otherwise, each of us individually, you're going to be spending more than. 00:12:14:06 - 00:12:15:07 Speaker 2 That exactly. 00:12:15:07 - 00:12:34:04 Speaker 1 On, on attorneys fees. So sometimes you can kind of create a group solution to something like that and just say, you know what? We all want to meet the client happy. We want them to be a happy homeowner and have a good product. And we also want to tell us in Ireland our long term liability. So let's as a team get together and solve this. 00:12:34:04 - 00:12:56:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean and that seems like the most logical thing. And I think, you know, in years past or maybe decades past that was that was just like kind of the go to thing. Right. But it just it I mean, people are fighting everything tooth and nail these days. And so, you know, I guess a forced solution is probably probably the best bet. 00:12:56:18 - 00:13:11:23 Speaker 2 And maybe they hate it at the time, but then they think, you know, they're lawyers or, whoever put it together with a had enough foresight to put it put it together. They'll thank them later because it's going to save them a crap ton of money and time. Right. 00:13:11:23 - 00:13:31:17 Speaker 1 So so one last thing on unaccountable Lee that I wanted to say is it kind of goes both ways. And I think sometimes the homeowners, clients, you know, often don't read the contract they're signing. And so you're getting these disputes where, I mean, clearly the builder, the contractor is in the right. The homeowner just doesn't like it. 00:13:31:18 - 00:13:38:13 Speaker 1 Right. I've seen a lot of issues with the the client not kind of being accountable for for the document. 00:13:38:13 - 00:13:58:02 Speaker 2 They 100% right? I mean, that's why in all honesty, I say I don't think I have any cases right now where I'm representing the homeowner. It's not the kind of like bash on the homeowner. I'm very right. Big proponent of like consumer rights. Like I think that, you know, it's important. And I think the what, you know, plaintiffs attorneys do is very important. 00:13:58:04 - 00:14:21:06 Speaker 2 But I just I've noticed that when you're representing the homeowner in the times that I have, it can become, very emotional, right. Versus commercial owners. It's a business proposition. But when you're representing, residential homeowners, it's their home. Right. And it is an emotional thing. It is a it's a very personal thing. And so they take it very personal. 00:14:21:07 - 00:14:41:11 Speaker 2 And, you know, I, I struggle with that from a logical standpoint because as a lawyer, I can understand, I'm sorry, as a person, I can understand the emotional aspect of it. But as a lawyer, I'm like, hey, you're not like you're dead to rights wrong here. And there's nothing there's not a lot that could be done about it. 00:14:41:11 - 00:15:09:06 Speaker 2 And, you know, there's no sense in throwing, good money after bad. Like, you kind of just need to figure out a solution. So, Yeah, I mean, a lot of times they don't read contracts. But in all fairness, a lot of times they don't. They did read it and they just don't understand it. Right. And I think that's a a bigger a bigger problem that's a little bit more prevalent is that you get whether it's a spec home builder or whether it's a custom home builder. 00:15:09:07 - 00:15:29:19 Speaker 2 And you have these, these contracts that have these provisions, whether it's the, you know, tab standard deal or whether it's something else. And people just don't know what they're signing, right? They don't know what they're agreeing to. And so I think the biggest thing is what I would like to see happen is more people get lawyers, you know, to just kind of explain it to them in plain terms. 00:15:29:19 - 00:15:51:20 Speaker 2 I mean, you're making probably the biggest purchase. You're making your life right? For most people. You would hope that they would get counsel to just say, hey, if I'm about to invest, you know, half $1 million or whatever. In the next 30 years of my life, I kind of think it's worth spending five grand. You know, I just make sure I understand what I'm committing to. 00:15:51:20 - 00:16:11:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. Or at a minimum, they require that the contractor sit down and and explain to them in plain language. Hey, this is this is what this means. This is what that means. And write it out. Now, most contractors wouldn't do that. And if I'm the contractors lawyer I would say absolutely. But it's a terrible, terrible situation to put yourself in. 00:16:11:16 - 00:16:12:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, but well. 00:16:12:20 - 00:16:14:18 Speaker 1 A lot of the contractors don't understand the contract. 00:16:14:19 - 00:16:16:05 Speaker 2 Either. That's true. It's true. 00:16:16:05 - 00:16:27:03 Speaker 1 They're just using that that generic tab contract, which I used to. But I mean, I have taken the time to understand the contract that I'm signing, but a lot of contractors are like, guess the standard form. I just sign. 00:16:27:03 - 00:16:46:13 Speaker 2 It. Yeah. Is the standard tab form. And that's dangerous to write as a contractor because you don't necessarily know what you're committing to from an operational or procedural standpoint. You have your SOPs that are for your company that made you successful or whatever, and then the tab has what you're required to do or what you're committing to doing. 00:16:46:13 - 00:17:16:21 Speaker 2 And sometimes those things aren't necessarily the same thing. Right. And so you need to understand what you're agreeing to. And then the homeowner needs to understand, because the thing that I think causes, I'd say probably 90% of disputes is just misunderstanding, whether it's a misunderstanding of the contract, a misunderstanding of, what each party thought was going to be brought to the table a lot of times there's there's disagreements regarding scope. 00:17:16:23 - 00:17:46:01 Speaker 2 Right. That's a big one. And then cost, you know, seeing something and. Oh, I thought it was going to be this much. But now it's, you know, because of unknown reasons or maybe reasons that should have been known, things get more expensive. And so, yeah, I think that just more transparency and understanding on the front end, clarity to make sure that both parties understand this is what I'm paying for from the homeowner standpoint and the contractor standpoint. 00:17:46:01 - 00:18:00:04 Speaker 2 Okay. This is what you're getting. So we're very clear. And if it's anything outside of that, whether you think it should be included or not, that's kind of not the point. We're very clear on this is what it is. And and then you go from there. 00:18:00:04 - 00:18:24:01 Speaker 1 So yeah. So just this morning we had a client and someone who's about to sign a construction contract with us. And we had kind of a contract scope review this morning. And, you know, one thing that we always do is, we'll go through the contract, and I don't want to, you know, because my lawyer wouldn't like it either if I sat there and tried to explain all the legal terms. 00:18:24:01 - 00:18:45:17 Speaker 1 That's not my place. They didn't get their own lawyer. But I do think it's important to point out to them, you know, here are the most common areas where there's some confusion. And this is kind of what this means in general. So like when we talk about how to change orders work, how do, how to draw payments work, you know, how do, what is substantial completion? 00:18:45:19 - 00:19:04:00 Speaker 1 You know, let's go through and hit at least those 4 or 5 kind of big items to make sure that, you know, we're looking at each other in the eye. We understand what this means, right? Yeah. If you got any further any further questions, talk to your attorney. But I'm not going to read the whole contract line by line with somebody. 00:19:04:02 - 00:19:07:00 Speaker 1 But I do think it's important to hit that it hit the high points. 00:19:07:00 - 00:19:33:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. I think that there's a way to try to do it. That keeps you out of hot water. I think that it's it is dangerous. I can see, like I said, I mean, from a contractor, from an attorney to contractor standpoint, I'd be worried about, you know, arguments of misrepresentation. Oh, well, because you know that, like you said, the main thing is that there's this lack of accountability on what you signed. 00:19:33:05 - 00:19:50:19 Speaker 2 Right. And so how do you get out of that? Oh, well, you know, when they were explaining this to me, they said it meant this. And I thought it, you know, I thought that and that's why I signed it. And so, you know, there's this concept, this contractual concept of fraudulent inducement. Right. That's what is called. And is they. 00:19:50:19 - 00:20:14:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. They fraudulently induced me to enter into this contract by sitting down and saying that. Yeah, clause one meant this and clause two meant this. And had they not have made that, that representation, I would have never signed the agreement. Right. And so that voids the agreement. Right. So I think there if you're doing it as a contractor, I think you do have to be very careful as to just be surface level. 00:20:14:10 - 00:20:38:22 Speaker 2 Right. And I would definitely follow up, you know, that conversation with documentation of, hey, if you're talking about substantial completion and you're explaining it, that needs to be in writing what you've explained, right? And that needs to be what you follow, because once you put it out there, that that's what substantial completion is, you're bound to it. And if you're not following that, then you catch yourself in hot water. 00:20:38:22 - 00:21:06:07 Speaker 2 So I think from a contractor standpoint, I think it's important that you do make sure that the customer understands what they're signing and so I do I am a big proponent of, you know, having a upfront, candid conversation with them. But I think that you need to build in protections to make sure that it's not something where they're saying you're misrepresenting things and, you know, can hit you with these DPA claims and fraud claims and all that stuff later. 00:21:06:11 - 00:21:40:03 Speaker 1 Yep. One thing, that I, that I like to point out also is that, you know, the the contract is kind of the mechanics of how we're going to work together. But one of the most important documents or parts of the contract, because we've got our main body that the main tab, but then we've got exhibit A specifications, exhibit B allowances, exhibit C draw schedules that the specifications document is, in my opinion, like the most important one in there, because that outlines what I am giving you for what you're paying. 00:21:40:08 - 00:21:57:05 Speaker 1 And I tell people if it's not listed on here, you're not getting it. Exactly. So before you sign this contract to read through this on your own, make sure that you, you know, if if you think that you're getting, epoxy grout, epoxy coating on your garage floor, make sure that's listed in that contract. 00:21:57:05 - 00:21:58:00 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:21:58:01 - 00:22:02:04 Speaker 1 And don't just assume it's on there because you mentioned it six months ago in a meeting. 00:22:02:05 - 00:22:31:13 Speaker 2 100%, 100%, I think, doesn't matter whether it's, you know, whether you're doing residential, commercial, you have the baseline agreement and then you have the exhibits. Some up sometimes general conditions, specifications, whatever the case may be. And so with the tab, like you said, you got the specifications in the other exhibits. And I think that, you know, most people probably just look at the baseline agreement and then all the exhibits are kind of like, you know, they kind of skim those. 00:22:31:15 - 00:22:53:08 Speaker 2 And I agree with you 100%. I think it's very important that, you know, specifically any scope document, which is basically what the specifications, document is, is I mean, that has to be kind of meticulously reviewed, right? I've seen people treat like the schedule of values as a specifications document and it has everything kind of line item. 00:22:53:08 - 00:23:19:00 Speaker 2 And, and it's like a you need to go a little. You need to drill down more. Right. Because sometimes what I see is kind of the main thing that kind of prompts disputes arising out of specifications is just they'll be like a broad thing that's supposed to be included. Right? But then there's other smaller things that have to make have to be done in order to accomplish that larger thing. 00:23:19:01 - 00:23:39:14 Speaker 2 And sometimes the homeowner just assumes that that's included, which I think is kind of, you know, natural for them. And then but the contractor understands that, hey, you know, there's some additional costs that are going to be associated with it. And they just don't, you know, the two don't meet the mine. Their minds don't meet on that. And then that comes up later and there's an issue. 00:23:39:16 - 00:24:02:10 Speaker 2 And so, you know, I do think it again, comes back to just a very candid, conversation to make sure you all have the same understanding of what's included and what's not, and being as transparent as possible. And then, you know, there's some agreements have language in them that pretty much makes it arguable that certain things should be included. 00:24:02:10 - 00:24:27:07 Speaker 2 Right? Like things that are Inferable title, that inferable language, which I always try to drill down on that from the contractor standpoint, like, hey, we're going to focus primarily on on from a scope standpoint. We're going to make sure that we're only responsible for doing what's in the scope document. And so like I said, if you want it done, you better make sure that it's on this paper. 00:24:27:07 - 00:24:53:01 Speaker 2 And then we even include a line that normally says, anything that's not on here is specifically excluded. Yep. Right. And so it's like we're not telling I nothing's inferred. If it's not on this paper, it's specifically excluded. It's expressly excluded. And courts have made it very clear that if you expressly exclude anything not included in the document, you know, you're kind of you've kind of made it very plain to them. 00:24:53:01 - 00:25:13:10 Speaker 1 So even back, like I wrote 20 years ago, before I back before I was sophisticated and dealing with construction issues when I was just getting started, someone gave me some advice on my very simple contract that I had at the time to just add the sentence that says, do not assume that anything is included in this contract. 00:25:13:10 - 00:25:25:14 Speaker 1 And in fact, if you do not see it listed here, it is specifically. I mean, it was a very simple statement that we that we added to that contract, but that that one's always stuck with me is a very powerful thing that. Yeah. 00:25:25:17 - 00:25:26:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, definitely. 00:25:26:18 - 00:25:27:12 Speaker 1 To have in there. 00:25:27:12 - 00:25:56:07 Speaker 2 Definitely is a it's a way to eliminate a lot of that uncertainty argument. And that, that inclusion, that inclusion argument because a lot of times, like I said, you know, the scope will have certain stuff in it and it may not drill down on some of the the underlying things that are required to make that happen. Or maybe they're not necessarily required all the time, but in this circumstances, it is required. 00:25:56:07 - 00:26:15:20 Speaker 2 Right. And so maybe there's, you know, some additional, drilling or some additional support that needs to be done instead of just like, for example, the project I'm dealing with right now, up and up in Dallas, it's our construction project for the winery, right? And out of nowhere, you know, we find out we got to do some additional soil cutting. 00:26:15:20 - 00:26:38:03 Speaker 2 And so it's just like change order, right. Significant change order. And so, you know, naturally certain plumbing and stuff was included. And so arguably as part of the plumbing there, the change that they said maybe it was part of the plumbing. Right, right. But I mean, I've been doing this long enough to know, okay, that's X amount of feet of additional soil cutting. 00:26:38:03 - 00:26:57:05 Speaker 2 I'm not going to tell the contractor. No, you've got to include that. Right. That's just not that's not the same thing. There's a sub that's got to do more salt cutting. And so it just is what it is. I mean, that's not something that should that could have been anticipated. And so, you know, I'm unfortunately having to pay more money on a change order. 00:26:57:05 - 00:27:16:04 Speaker 2 It just is what it is. Right. But if I were, you know, maybe, like, it's less sophisticated, maybe I find myself in a situation where I'm arguing about that, we're spending money, and then the project slows down and there's delays, and we kind of get back to that situation that that we talked about. So. 00:27:16:06 - 00:27:38:22 Speaker 1 So just having a high level of, of clarity and detail in your documents is really important. You know, there's a lot of different ways to accomplish different tasks on a construction site. You could say install faucet and bathroom, right. Well, you would assume that maybe that a faucet is something that you drill a hole in the countertop and you stick it in there. 00:27:38:22 - 00:28:03:18 Speaker 1 Right? But what if that client goes and picks a wall mounted fast? Exactly. It requires certain support or requires a special valve inside the wall. And that client, you know, doesn't want to pay a change order to have to to have to add that extra stuff. You know, you could have made it a lot more clear by in your scope document and saying, you know, this includes installation of a deck mounted three three hole faucet. 00:28:03:18 - 00:28:27:16 Speaker 1 Right? Very clear. So, I do like a little class with contractors, talking about this particular issue in the illustration that I like to do is I'll get like a generic architectural drawing of a, of a powder bathroom. Yeah, a sink, a toilet, three by five room. Super simple. And I say, okay, describe to me what you're doing in this bathroom. 00:28:27:18 - 00:28:38:04 Speaker 1 Invariably people will say, you know, we're, you know, install cabinet, install countertop, install sink and install toilet, install tile. Okay. All right. Let's pick apart where that's where that's going to go wrong. Yeah. 00:28:38:04 - 00:28:39:03 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:28:39:05 - 00:28:59:08 Speaker 1 So I mean like if you ask a homeowner to to close their eyes and imagine the powder bathroom, how are they going to describe it? You know what what what material is the cabinet. Is there wallpaper on the walls. Is it two sconces versus one sconce? Is it a flat mirror or a hung mirror? What kind of faucet is it? 00:28:59:08 - 00:29:21:08 Speaker 1 I mean, there's a million levels of detail that you can go into on that to protect yourself. And to me, that's where that's where I've seen the most disputes personally as a builder. On the receiving end of that, and also and also as an owner's rep and as a, as a consultant, most of the disputes that I've seen have been from the owner not understanding what it is they're buying. 00:29:21:11 - 00:29:47:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. I think that you hit the nail on the head with details. I mean, these generalities are bound to cause problems, right? Because there's anytime you just have a general, description, or lack of a description, rather, there's just leaves room for two people to have differing interpretations of what, the same sentence or the same, inclusion mean. 00:29:47:23 - 00:30:13:15 Speaker 2 Right. And so I think the more detail you put in there, the better off you are. And then again, you need that, that, that exclusion language that, hey, if it's not on here, then and it's not included. And so I think that's a really good point. Just making sure that, you know, the level of specificity that you put into, that specification document, I think is, is very, very crucial. 00:30:13:15 - 00:30:38:06 Speaker 2 And then making sure that the homeowner commits to those certain, details, you know, making sure you get them to commit to as, as many details as possible. But it cuts both ways, though, right? So from a contractor standpoint, let's say you do have something that you know, you've committed to in there. And and maybe for one reason or another, it's more difficult to accomplish. 00:30:38:06 - 00:30:44:06 Speaker 2 Or the cost is, is, you know, more than you anticipated or you've got to live by that, too. Right? 00:30:44:06 - 00:30:46:06 Speaker 1 And so it goes back to the accountability. 00:30:46:08 - 00:30:55:01 Speaker 2 Exactly. You got to be accountable for it, right? I mean, it's just one of those things, right? Yeah. It's just one of those things. 00:30:55:03 - 00:31:20:13 Speaker 1 Where we're on a project right now. We're we're almost finished with it, where we we took this project over from another builder, which, unfortunately, we do a good bit of. But the previous builder, the client, had signed a contract with based on no set of specifications. It was just the Tab main contract with no specifications listed and a partial set of plans. 00:31:20:15 - 00:31:43:10 Speaker 1 It wasn't even a full set of plans. It was like a floor plan and a couple of elevations, and that's it. And they signed up, you know, 900 something thousand dollar construction contract based on this? Yeah, it's it's insane. And sure enough, they get halfway through. And guess what? There's all kinds of disputes and, anyway, that that guy ended up getting fired, we ended up stepping in and taking over. 00:31:43:12 - 00:32:01:02 Speaker 1 But the house that we ended up, that we're finishing right now, that we ended up building, is totally different from the house that was on paper that the other builder was selling them. You know, this is and it was it went from $900,000 to $1.6 million, but. 00:32:01:02 - 00:32:02:01 Speaker 2 Not always have. 00:32:02:03 - 00:32:23:23 Speaker 1 But but guess what that guy had in a 6000 square foot house. He had $30,000 worth of cabinets. Well, it's $120,000 worth of cabinets. So, you know, they'd they did not understand what it was that they were buying. And the contractor I don't I don't know if it was malicious or not, if he intentionally kind of undercut it to get to get it under contract, hoping they would just roll with it. 00:32:23:23 - 00:32:44:17 Speaker 1 But, you know, it was a bad situation and it cost both of them. I mean, I think they both ended up spending 50 grand or more with attorneys just, just just to get it terminated. Right. So, you know, all that could have been saved by, you know, the builder providing a high level of clarity and the homeowner also questioning, hey, what? 00:32:44:18 - 00:32:51:11 Speaker 1 You know, what am I buying? Why why isn't the why isn't there a better description of what I'm buying instead of shaking hands and trusting them? 00:32:51:11 - 00:33:17:19 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. I think this in the beginning of these contracts, or when people are entering into these agreements, I think there's a high level of excitement from the homeowner. Yep. They're ready to get it done. And I think that the the builder sees a sale, right. They're excited. And I think they both need to just kind of slow down and understand that it is a significant transaction that, you know, shouldn't be shouldn't be entered into lightly. 00:33:17:19 - 00:33:41:14 Speaker 2 And then I think the other piece of it is, you know, and this is another thing that I've noticed is kind of like the era we're in. There's this, like, people don't like to rock the boat, right? Everybody wants everybody to be comfortable. Everybody's very friendly. Nobody likes to, everybody's non-confrontational, put it that way. 00:33:41:16 - 00:34:03:03 Speaker 2 And it's just something that I've noticed people just kind of go along to get along instead of when their gut is telling them, hey, this isn't quite right. I should probably say something, or I should probably raise raise the flag or say, hey, you know what's going on here? They don't do it. They just kind of like, oh, it'll probably just work itself out. 00:34:03:03 - 00:34:21:02 Speaker 2 Or it might just. And then they get down the road and then they come to me and they're like, yeah. And I kind of had a feeling that blah blah blah blah. And what what did you say anything at that time? No. You know, I thought I thought he was a good guy or I thought they and I'm like, that's an expensive bet, you know, like that's an expensive gamble. 00:34:21:04 - 00:34:41:11 Speaker 2 And so I tell people, look, you're getting ready to invest a significant amount of time, a significant amount of money. This isn't it. And your friend, you know, you've got to ask the tough questions and make sure that the details there and be very transparent and and, require a high level of transparency because once you're in, it is too late. 00:34:41:12 - 00:35:11:02 Speaker 2 Right. And so do your diligence, and make sure that you have that all the eyes and crossed all the T's, because once you are dealing with that person, you're kind of stuck with them for, for a while, you know, because it's expensive to terminate. I mean, I tell contractors all the time, actually, my clients that are take over, folks that take over new jobs, I'm like, hey, when you go into this takeover job, you got to make sure that you're real solid because those are very dangerous projects, man. 00:35:11:02 - 00:35:32:19 Speaker 2 So, you know, kudos to you all for being able to to do a lot of those and complete them successfully because those, those takeover clients are, are high maintenance. They're they're already been burned through a lot. Yeah. Yeah. So they have by that time they're no longer non-confrontational. Right. You know, they're very much willing to ask the tough questions and micromanage and all that. 00:35:32:20 - 00:35:35:05 Speaker 2 And sometimes that's it's very difficult to deal with. 00:35:35:09 - 00:35:57:08 Speaker 1 The good thing that we found is if you do have a good process and if you you do communicate well, if you do good quality work, if you're honest, it's pretty easy to gain their trust if they if they can observe that you're operating in a totally different plane than the previous guy operated, it's usually pretty easy to gain the trust. 00:35:57:10 - 00:36:17:16 Speaker 1 But yeah, it's important to, to maintain that trust. And it's important not to over promise to which was actually kind of my next item, but something that I see a lot. And this goes back to kind of pre-contract initial conversations. I think there's a lot of over promising that takes place. 00:36:17:22 - 00:36:18:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:36:18:20 - 00:36:42:05 Speaker 1 Oh, we got that for you. We'll do that for you. Oh, yeah. We can we can pull that off. Right. And, the old, phrase, it's, under-promise and overdeliver. Right. I love that, that that mantra. But yeah, I see so many contractors saying, oh, yeah, we'll do that for you. We got it. When it comes time to execute, if they can't execute it. 00:36:42:05 - 00:37:07:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, I see it a lot in two different ways. Just, cost and time. Right. The big one, though lately that I've seen, especially in the commercial world, is time. And the residential side always see cost, right? I mean, they the amount of projects that are underbid and then, you know, they get hit with some large change order on the residential side is just insane. 00:37:07:11 - 00:37:31:22 Speaker 2 Or God forbid they get them in, just a regular cost plus. And it's no, it's like there's no guarantee maximum price or anything like that. I've seen those go just wildly out of control, you know, 200, $300,000, remodel or build, enter the million dollar, you know, Mark. And it's just it's like, how did this happen? 00:37:32:04 - 00:38:01:05 Speaker 2 Right. And so it's because the contractor came and said, yeah, we could do this, we could do that. And, you know, we x, Y and z and A, B and C, we'll we'll throw that in. And then the next thing you know, it's it's just grown astronomically. Right. And then on the time side, I think that's pretty frustrating because people will say, yeah, people set their lives up, whether it's to move into their new home or, you know, to get their business started based on a timeline that they're given. 00:38:01:07 - 00:38:19:01 Speaker 2 When that timeline, for anybody realistically looking at it, that was never going to happen. You know, you're not going to build this in 180 days. You're just not going to do it. Is absolutely anybody that's been in construction knows that you're not going to do that. But they say, yeah, we could we can hit that with probably substantial completion. 00:38:19:01 - 00:38:22:03 Speaker 2 We may have some punch list items that we need to get done. 00:38:22:06 - 00:38:22:17 Speaker 1 I've heard that. 00:38:22:20 - 00:38:36:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. We'll just have it. We just punch list that stuff. But no, you can't punch list and stuff because you're not. You're not even going to be able to get a CEO, you know, before before doing that, you can even get a temporary CEO, you know, how do you not if you just try to throw that stuff one punch list. 00:38:36:05 - 00:38:49:20 Speaker 2 So so yeah, I think that's the main thing is, you know, time and costs. You know, it's a lot of I don't I don't know if it's malicious or it's just like people are overly ambitious, but either way you got to be a little bit more realistic. 00:38:49:20 - 00:39:04:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the other one that I've seen a lot is, people taking on a bigger project than they're really qualified to take on. Like that kind of overpromising. So like, oh, yeah, I can, I can, I can build that. I'll figure that out. 00:39:04:06 - 00:39:08:03 Speaker 2 Right? Nightmare. I mean, I see that often. 00:39:08:08 - 00:39:26:22 Speaker 1 We, we we've seen so many, cases that we've either been an expert witness on or got hired as an owner's rep on where the builder has never built like a high end modern house. They've only built production homes or spec homes or whatever. And all of a sudden they get hired to build a $2 million super modern house. 00:39:26:22 - 00:39:36:12 Speaker 1 Like it's just construction. I can do that. Right? Exactly. And then they get into it. They have no idea what they're doing. And oftentimes it's their trade base that's not qualified. 00:39:36:13 - 00:39:52:16 Speaker 2 Jack. That's what I was going to say. The subs man. They're like, oh, it's bricks and sticks. We'll be okay. But yeah, the subs that jump it because a lot of times it and it may not even just be from the standpoint of knowing how to build it, because at a certain extent maybe it is. Construction is an upgrade of materials and things of that nature. 00:39:52:18 - 00:40:20:03 Speaker 2 Maybe the process changes some, but a big part of what I'm seeing is just they're undercapitalized. There's there are not in a they are not in a position to, you know, do this large of a project and then, you know, go 30, 45 days without getting paid, like they need that money almost immediately. And so they they're undercapitalized and they're just not able to deal with the financial aspect of it or the financial strain that comes with that large of a project. 00:40:20:03 - 00:40:35:17 Speaker 2 And it takes a lot of them out. I mean, they're excited about getting, you know, a six figure, a seven figure scope of work. And then they just can't handle it. I mean, they bow out and it really screws everybody over when that happens, when it's a subtree for for sure. 00:40:35:17 - 00:41:03:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. And a lot of that goes, goes back to again again the subs. So let's say you've got a, a free plumber or an electrician that you usually use on $50,000 bathroom remodel. Now you're asking them to do a $2 million custom home. He might be able to do the wiring and the plumbing for it, but maybe he doesn't have credit terms that his suppliers and or maybe the GC doesn't have credit terms with these suppliers. 00:41:03:13 - 00:41:17:08 Speaker 1 And so they have to write that check every single week. Exactly. Or that plumber is used to getting paid every Friday at noon. Well, now you're asking that plumber to go 30, 45 days without getting paid. And so that forces the GC to pay him. Now the GC is cash poor. 00:41:17:10 - 00:41:18:12 Speaker 2 No, you're exactly right. 00:41:18:12 - 00:41:19:18 Speaker 1 The whole thing snowballs. 00:41:19:19 - 00:41:37:06 Speaker 2 You get a lot of times the way that I see it is, is labor. Like, you know, some folks are used to paying their labor almost weekly or whatever, you know, especially in residential, they're used to paying their, their labor weekly and, and then maybe they'll jump on a commercial job. And that's just it's not going to happen. 00:41:37:10 - 00:42:08:03 Speaker 2 They're just not going to do it that way. And so, they freak out and, you know, lanes are getting filed and all that different stuff because people down the line are expecting to get paid and they, they don't. But that's that expectation wasn't realistic to begin with. Right. And so that's that's a huge problem. I mean you have to you have to play within your, your experience level and you have to play within the level of, you know, the size of your company, what your, what you're well positioned for. 00:42:08:03 - 00:42:30:12 Speaker 2 And I say, I think I've even posted that a few different times on LinkedIn that, hey, every job, although it looks like a huge opportunity, you know, it's probably it's probably not the job for you if if you look at it and you know, you're like, I don't think we're in a position or, or you even have a maybe an inkling that you shouldn't be doing it, don't do it like just don't do it right. 00:42:30:12 - 00:42:53:02 Speaker 2 You you've got to sometimes growth. And this is just speaking from an entrepreneurial standpoint because I, I guess I have other businesses in venture. So this is not even Kenneth the lawyer. This is Kenneth, the entrepreneurial, entrepreneur talking growth is good. Growth is growth is good. Hypergrowth terrifying. I mean, you grow too quickly. It can kill you. 00:42:53:06 - 00:43:08:19 Speaker 2 It can kill your business. It just is the way that it is. And so, you know, methodical, measured growth, beautiful hypergrowth. You got to make sure that you're prepared for it. And that takes a lot of businesses out. So, just don't bite off more than you can chew. 00:43:08:21 - 00:43:34:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's that's fantastic advice. I mean, I, I say a lot of the things I say because these are mistakes that I've personally made in the past. Now I, I, I feel good in saying that I'm the kind of person who holds themselves accountable. And if I make a mistake, I fix it. Right. So a lot of the mistakes that we've talked about, I've, I've made them ten, 15, 20 years ago or yesterday maybe. 00:43:34:17 - 00:43:50:03 Speaker 1 Right. But I, I've owned up to it and fixed it. But what you said about growing too fast is spot on. I guess about what was it? Well, Hurricane Harvey, that was like 6 or 7 years ago now. Something like that. 00:43:50:05 - 00:43:50:21 Speaker 2 Right? 17. 00:43:50:23 - 00:44:14:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, we were I had a decent sized staff. I think I had 6 or 7 people working for me. But when, when Harvey hit every contractor in Houston got insanely busy. So I'm thinking, hey, I'm going to capitalize on this. I'm going to hire staff. I'm going to take every single job we can get. And, you know, overnight, almost. 00:44:14:06 - 00:44:29:00 Speaker 1 We doubled our staff and we took on so many jobs. And I was like, we are in the money. Yeah, yeah. And we did not have the level of organization to maintain that. And we actually made less money doing way more. Weren't doing double the work. 00:44:29:00 - 00:44:29:17 Speaker 2 It's terrible. 00:44:29:17 - 00:44:35:06 Speaker 1 Man. It was. And as soon as the Harvey work dried up I had to let all those extra people go, you know. 00:44:35:08 - 00:45:05:08 Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly, man. I tell folks all the time, you know, it's about, you know, business is you kind of doing this, right? I mean, it's always kind of these ups and downs. Is entrepreneurship, right? But you want the the trend to kind of be a upward trajectory. And as long as it's kind of this methodical upward trajectory, you're right at the highs and lows and what have you, if you find at any like year or any six month period or whatever, you just kind of catapult up to this, you probably need to be a little leery, right? 00:45:05:08 - 00:45:31:20 Speaker 2 Especially in a service based business. Right. Because I'm a service based business, it's labor. It's manpower that you're you're going to have to keep sustaining that. So as like for example, a law firm, I'm always I'm very cognizant of not taking on some massive, you know, I would never get a project that's like $1 billion dispute, right? I mean, the amount of people we would have to hire to maintain that. 00:45:31:20 - 00:45:54:05 Speaker 2 And so if I if I found myself in that situation, I would have to look at that very carefully. Right. Very carefully, because again, I can scale up, hire ten, 15 lawyers to work on that case and just that case. But then after that case, did I have to continue to feed that machine, or I have to cut that part of the machine off, which feels kind of like very mercenary, you know what I mean? 00:45:54:05 - 00:46:20:21 Speaker 2 And that that's not something that I'm really here to do. So for us, it's always been about just methodical. Growth is the same thing. You know, since we're talking about entrepreneurship on the wine side of things, like a I made a very similar mistake in the, in, product, offerings. Right? I mean, we grew our product offerings very quickly from, as a wine brand, we grew to, 13 wines in like less than three years, like maybe two years. 00:46:20:21 - 00:46:38:11 Speaker 2 We scaled up to 13 different SKUs. And very quickly I was like, this is very difficult inventory to maintain for 13, right? You got your best sellers and you got to make sure you got a lot of inventory of those. But because you now have 13 offerings, you have to have some inventory for all of them. And that becomes more difficult to manage. 00:46:38:13 - 00:46:56:18 Speaker 2 And so I was kind of like, well, some of these may get sunset right away. It's just like, we may not be offering some of these, but it's just, you know, you learn from those mistakes and, and, you know, I definitely, as the CEO of the company, was accountable. I was just like, yep, we're going to kind of just have to let people know we're sold out. 00:46:56:22 - 00:46:59:09 Speaker 2 You know, I'm sorry. My bad. 00:46:59:14 - 00:47:06:21 Speaker 1 Well, since you brought it up, go ahead and give everybody the the name of your winery and tell us about that. I was going to wait until the end, but we're in there, so. 00:47:07:01 - 00:47:08:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, I saw good morning. 00:47:08:16 - 00:47:08:21 Speaker 1 Everybody. 00:47:08:21 - 00:47:28:19 Speaker 2 About it. Yeah. So our own partner, our urban wineries, we are a, winery in downtown Houston. So we have a winery and tasting room, but we make all California wines. We sourced the grapes from California. So, like I said, we're up to 13 different wines. But kind of the core of our portfolio is maybe about 6 or 7 wines. 00:47:28:21 - 00:47:48:16 Speaker 2 They've won a lot of awards. We've had the good fortune, to recently when, you know, the the rodeo competition, we had, one of our wines got a gold, double gold there. And we've got a few of them that have gotten double golds. We've had, like, Master Somalians taste the wines and have loved them, you know? 00:47:48:16 - 00:48:06:14 Speaker 2 But what we really appreciate is that the portfolio is pretty diverse, and even the individual wines are diverse enough to where people that come in and don't know a lot about wine when they visit our tasting room, they'll taste our wines and and actually appreciate them as well. You know, they don't have a bunch of sugar in them. 00:48:06:14 - 00:48:27:22 Speaker 2 It's not like, you know, this kind of sugar juice situation. It's really good quality wines. But we just we just appreciate that they're diverse enough to be loved by those with really experienced and sophisticated palates and those that are new to wine, because most of the people that come into our tasting room downtown, they don't have a lot of experience with wine. 00:48:27:23 - 00:48:43:20 Speaker 2 So it's just, you know, trying to introduce wine to, this market. Because we're not California, obviously, downtown Houston, most folks are just kind of traversing work, coming in from the suburbs. And maybe this is their first wine experience, and we're happy to be able to offer that for. 00:48:43:23 - 00:48:49:03 Speaker 1 You guys are opening a new location in Dallas, which you reference you're working on right now. Get construction happening. 00:48:49:03 - 00:49:05:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a that's a construction project that's going on up in Dallas or in a Victory Park area, really excited about it. We think it's going to do really well. There's a lot of excitement in the city about about that experience because we, you know, we kind of track the analytics and everything. The people that visit the website and that have come to the tasting room. 00:49:05:18 - 00:49:22:19 Speaker 2 We've got a lot of people from Dallas, like when they come in and they visit from Houston, they're, you know, they're coming in visiting Houston from Dallas, they're coming into the tasting room. So we have a huge mailing list and all of that. And we're getting pinged like every day, every few hours. Hey, when they are open, when they are open, when they are open. 00:49:22:19 - 00:49:32:16 Speaker 2 So it's really antsy. But the construction is going good. You know, we got a good group up there. And our GM is kind of managing that up there as well. Which, which is nice. 00:49:32:16 - 00:49:57:18 Speaker 1 So awesome. Well, good. I'm glad we got to get a chance to plug that. I definitely wanted to bring that up. So back to our, back to our construction discussion. So communication is kind of the next thing that I wanted to talk about in, in, in my experience, kind of why people get into conflict is the lack of communication. 00:49:57:20 - 00:50:15:18 Speaker 1 And I think that kind of going back to accountability also is part of this. But I think sometimes people are contractors are very slow to give bad news. And if something does come up, that they're scared to, they're scared to mention it. 00:50:15:18 - 00:50:16:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. 00:50:16:14 - 00:50:19:14 Speaker 1 And the bad news, it doesn't get better with age. It's not like when you gotta. 00:50:19:15 - 00:50:39:09 Speaker 2 Just pull the Band-Aid off in a way. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, right? I mean, it's just, there's this thing now where people just kind of go along that kind of go along and and hope that it goes away. Right? I've had contractors. I've gotten sued and, you know, just ignored it, just outright ignored it. 00:50:39:09 - 00:50:43:02 Speaker 2 And I mean, talk to me on a regular basis, but just ignored. 00:50:43:02 - 00:50:45:04 Speaker 1 It. You get a certified letter in the mail and you just. 00:50:45:06 - 00:51:04:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, it'll it'll do it. And then it becomes a judgment. And, you know, it's a default judgment because you didn't answer. And then at that point that's when they call me and I say, I can't do it at this point. Right. You call me three months ago I could have helped you out, but you can't. The longer you ignore problems, the worse they get, right? 00:51:04:13 - 00:51:26:13 Speaker 2 It's just like any kind of disease of the body or anything. If you think about your business as a or the project as a, you know, the human body, if there's a sickness. Yeah, maybe it starts off small, but you ignore it, you ignore it, ignore it, and it could become, unfortunately, terminal. It's pretty morbid, but when you think about it from that standpoint, I think it yeah, it makes it very real for people. 00:51:26:14 - 00:51:43:16 Speaker 2 Small problems become big problems, big problems become business killers. And so I think, you know that you got bad news. Yes. First try to fix it because I'm a big proponent of if I'm going to be delivering bad news, I want to deliver it with a solution. 00:51:43:16 - 00:51:44:08 Speaker 1 Exactly. 00:51:44:08 - 00:52:05:07 Speaker 2 Right. So I'm not just going to call you and say, hey, Curtis, you know, we stepped in it. Our bad. Yeah. Don't know how to, you know just like good luck. You know I mean I'm gonna I normally am like, hey, this is what happened. It's not ideal. It's our fault 100%. And I've done this recently with a client. 00:52:05:07 - 00:52:25:11 Speaker 2 I've called to say, hey, you know, this happened. Sorry it happen. It's not ideal, but this is how we're going to fix it and it's going to put you you're going to be in a very similar position. You know, this is how we're going to fix it. And worked out beautifully. And what I originally thought was a problem wasn't even a problem like when I thought we did and it was a problem. 00:52:25:13 - 00:52:44:19 Speaker 2 It actually was not right. But just the IT. That client will forever respect the fact that I picked up the phone and called them, because I had that actually had been a problem. You know, I had already come up with a solution for it, but more importantly, there was a level of integrity there for me to just pick up the phone and, and let them know what had happened. 00:52:44:21 - 00:53:06:01 Speaker 2 And so, I think that's something that contractors need to do to do a better job at. I think that, you know, people in general need to do a better job at that. Just recognizing that some happen, trying to figure out solutions that are options and then communicating that and just kind of following them sort like, hey, I did it. 00:53:06:01 - 00:53:07:19 Speaker 2 This is what it is. This is how we fix it. 00:53:07:23 - 00:53:27:16 Speaker 1 Or, you know, it's not a problem necessarily, even if it's just a delay, whether it's weather or whatever it might be. You know, again, this is this is somebody is very personal, somebody's house. Oftentimes they're showing something else and moving in or they're renting and they have a lease that's running out there to move in on a certain date. 00:53:27:18 - 00:53:49:12 Speaker 1 And they're they're counting on you to communicate to them if there's a delay or not. And, you know, you're, you're trying to to plan an opening date for a business and get inventory in there or whatever it is. But if if you're not communicating and saying, you know, hey, we're these weather delays have pushed us back a month, so you might need to extend your lease for a month and try to find another place to live, because you can't move in here yet. 00:53:49:12 - 00:53:56:16 Speaker 1 But just communicating that and making sure that you're ahead of it and, yeah, you don't get a phone call that says, hey, we're moving in next week. 00:53:56:18 - 00:54:12:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think the earlier you let people know, the better they can plan for it. I mean, that's what it comes down to. And it doesn't matter whether it's a, a time situation, whether it's a financial like if it's going to cost me more money, let me know sooner rather than later so that I can start reallocating funds. 00:54:12:04 - 00:54:26:04 Speaker 2 So call me like right when you need the money and saying, hey, I need 40 grand, right? Wait a minute. What happened? Yeah. You know, so the sooner I know, the easier it is for me to, to adjust to it. Yeah. 00:54:26:09 - 00:54:47:16 Speaker 1 Which brings me to the, change order. You know, speaking of dropping large amounts of money on people, you know, there's two kinds of change orders. There's a change order of necessity where it's like, hey, we have to do this either because the plans were wrong or there's a condition on the site, and we have to do this, you know, like, hey, we didn't know that that plumbing was at a different place under the slabs. 00:54:47:16 - 00:55:09:12 Speaker 1 We have to saw. Cut it now. Right. So that that's a like a change order of necessity. Right. And then there's the change order of, you know, hey, I like that's prettier. I want to do that instead. Right. Or I want to move that cabinet from point A to point B. So I see a lot of conflict when it comes to change orders. 00:55:09:12 - 00:55:34:16 Speaker 1 And sometimes it's it's not clear which one of those two types of change was. It is I mean, sometimes it's people just do the change order without getting approval and then they ask for payment. And it's like if there's a change order you've got to stop. Stop what you're doing. Write it up. Yeah. Assign a cost to it and present it to the client and say you know Mr. Stevens this is going to be an extra $20,000. 00:55:34:18 - 00:55:42:02 Speaker 1 We have to do it because of these conditions or you want to move that cabinet. It's $20,000. Are you okay with that? 00:55:42:02 - 00:55:42:22 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. 00:55:42:22 - 00:55:46:15 Speaker 1 Don't just do it and then hit him with a bit of surprise Bill at the end of the project. 00:55:46:15 - 00:56:01:22 Speaker 2 Exactly. And I don't care. Like the relationship or like how good a friend y'all are or whatever. Hurry you're in. Exactly. Because of what you see is a lot of stuff. A lot of direction in the field. Oh, yeah. We want to move that over to there and you can go get the paper. Yeah, we'll sign it out. 00:56:01:22 - 00:56:22:11 Speaker 2 We'll paper it up like it's just, you know, do all of it on the front end so that it's not, you know, coming back to bite you because people's memories get really, really, really short. Well, you know, and when it comes time to actually pay for it or amended and what have you. So definitely, you know, make sure that that's all clear on the front end. 00:56:22:11 - 00:56:47:00 Speaker 2 Like you said. And I think that some you said earlier helps with that, you know, kind of having an understanding, making sure that both parties are on the same page with regard to what the change order procedure is. Yep. Right. Understanding that, hey, this is who is going to have the authority to make changes, this is who's going to, you know, if a change order comes up, unless this person gets this signed, I'm not going to be able to do it. 00:56:47:00 - 00:57:00:23 Speaker 2 The contractor making that very clear, unless you all sign this change order, I'm not going to be able to do the work. So your project can be delayed. And so yeah, I'll keep asking you, but you know, I'm not going to go and just do the work. So you're going to want to make sure that that's that's able to be done. 00:57:00:23 - 00:57:21:13 Speaker 2 And then the same thing with when the contractor side, hey, you know, you can't just get one of the sub trades to agree to something and think that it's, it's binding on, on the GC, right. Whether it's the superintendent that's out there or whether it's the PM, different organizations do it differently. But my PM needs to agree that this is what we're going to do. 00:57:21:13 - 00:57:36:04 Speaker 2 And that there's going to be no added cost or or that it's not going to impact the schedule. The fact that, you know, a sub trade or somebody that was just on out on site said, yeah, we could do that. It won't add any time or whatever. Like you, you can't do that, right? I mean, you can't take that as law. 00:57:36:04 - 00:57:41:18 Speaker 2 So I think understanding what the change order procedure is going to be is, is critically important. 00:57:42:00 - 00:58:01:11 Speaker 1 And we you know, our policy is and I think most builders policy is, change orders should be paid in advance or paid at the time the work is performed. I've seen a lot of disputes where you get down to the very end of the project final payment and the GC hands the homeowner. A summary of all the change orders. 00:58:01:11 - 00:58:06:08 Speaker 1 Hey, here's an extra bill for $100,000. And they're like, I don't know, 100, $100,000. 00:58:06:08 - 00:58:25:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly as I know I hear you. And I think that I think it's a balancing act. I think, you know, ideally, yeah, I would definitely get paid up front. I think it needs to get paid on at least the draw that is performed. Right. I think you definitely don't want to float all the all the change orders to the end as a nightmare, as a recipe for disaster. 00:58:25:06 - 00:58:43:23 Speaker 2 I think doing it it at least in the drawer. Right. I think that that's that's what needs to be done. But yeah, it's interesting they got that law now that, you know, if the change orders over a certain amount, I mean, if there's a change in the work over a certain amount without a executed change order, the contractor doesn't have to perform the work. 00:58:43:23 - 00:59:04:12 Speaker 2 So that's pretty used to be that, you know, if there was additional work or what have you, you could try to force the the contractor or the sub to to do the work. And then, you know, you say, oh, well, we'll get that figured out, we'll get that figured out. But, now they can't be forced to do anything if they perceive it as a as a, a change. 00:59:04:12 - 00:59:28:22 Speaker 1 So yeah. Last thing I wanted to, to mention is, it's kind of a way to protect yourself and avoid disputes. And this is something that we've had a lot of guests on to talk about over the last year or so is, kind of using third party verification and inspections to protect yourself and the homeowner and avoid disputes. 00:59:28:22 - 00:59:47:00 Speaker 1 So if you've got, you know, if there's an architect, structural engineer and then various types of inspectors out there, I think a lot of builders and contractors try to avoid having those inspections because it's holding them accountable. Right, exactly. It's like if you're if they're if their work's not to the plans, the architects are going to catch it and is going to call them out on it. 00:59:47:00 - 00:59:47:20 Speaker 2 Right, exactly. 00:59:47:22 - 01:00:02:22 Speaker 1 But what they have to understand is that, you know, by having these additional people out looking at their work, inspecting it and signing off on it, if something comes up a year from now, that's more protection for them. 01:00:02:22 - 01:00:32:08 Speaker 2 100%, 100%. It's a, you know, a neutral third party or disinterested third party that is, you know, verify, hey, this was this was done correctly. And so it definitely makes it a lot more difficult, for, for a homeowner to bring a claim. Right? I mean, like to or at least one that can be sustained. If you've already had a third party inspector come in and say, hey, this looks like this looks this looks right. 01:00:32:08 - 01:00:51:22 Speaker 2 It meets the specs, right? And it meets the code. And, you know, all the eyes are dotted, all the T's across. So I think that, you know, I think that's a really good thing to have done. I mean, you know, a lot of times you'll have people that think that just if the city approves something or just whatever, that's that's fine. 01:00:51:22 - 01:00:54:03 Speaker 2 But that's just not the case. Right. 01:00:54:03 - 01:01:03:04 Speaker 1 And so the city is there is there to inspect for building code. They're not there to inspect for fit and finish. They're not there to inspect for adherence to the plans. 01:01:03:04 - 01:01:03:20 Speaker 2 Actually. 01:01:03:22 - 01:01:08:12 Speaker 1 You know, they're they're just looking at code. And let's be honest, they don't even always catch all that. Yeah. 01:01:08:14 - 01:01:36:09 Speaker 2 Yeah 100%. And so it is important to have someone that can come in and, and verify that everything is done in the way that it, that it should have been done so that you don't, you know, get bit later. And that's both, like you said, on the contractor side and on the homeowner side, you know, if I'm a homeowner and I'm getting a custom home, you know, $2 million custom home built, you can believe I'm going to either have the architect as I'm doing the administration of the contract and the inspection. 01:01:36:11 - 01:01:57:18 Speaker 2 I mean, even on our small project in Dallas, it's not anything significant, but I've got an architect doing administration of the contract, and I'm somebody that probably could, you know, look at it and determine, okay, this is, you know, being done to spec or whatever. I've looked at enough plans, but I'm like, no, I need an architect that's going to tell me, hey, Kenneth, you can release this money and hey, this is this is done or. 01:01:57:18 - 01:02:06:01 Speaker 2 No, we need to we need to get them to come back in. And do you know a B and C. And so I think that's that's critically important. And it I think it protects both sides. 01:02:06:06 - 01:02:17:21 Speaker 1 Yeah I mean and it's it's usually not a massive amount of money in the, in the overall scope of what's, what's happening. Right. Like the architect doing CA might charge a few thousand. 01:02:17:21 - 01:02:19:17 Speaker 2 Dollars. 01:02:19:19 - 01:02:42:05 Speaker 1 The homeowner hiring an owner's rep, it might be a few thousand dollars, depending on how big the project is. Right? You know, the structural engineer might charge 350 or $500 to come out and do an inspection. When you're spending a couple million bucks, probably should go ahead and spend 5 or $10,000 to do all the all the checks along the way to make sure that you're getting what you paid for. 01:02:42:07 - 01:02:52:17 Speaker 1 But also that it's being done, you know, so that your, your property is protected long term and your interests are they're protected long term. 01:02:52:17 - 01:03:09:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, 100%. I think the contractor also on the front end, you know, if that becomes your policy that you are going to bring in an inspector or you're going to let the homeowner bring in an inspector or whatever, and you're going to adhere to what that inspector says. You just kind of build that into your pricing, right? 01:03:09:10 - 01:03:28:09 Speaker 2 Know that, because I think a lot of times the hesitation for the contractors is always going to kill my margins. They're going to come in and they're going to, you know, find all these, these little nitpicky things that aren't. It's like, look, you want you want that additional layer of protection, right? You want to be able to say, well, look, I don't need it. 01:03:28:10 - 01:03:41:16 Speaker 2 We, you know, say it was done right. But this inspector said we did everything right. And so I think that that or this architect said we built a suspect. They approved a certified the payments, you know, gave us substantial completion. So. 01:03:41:21 - 01:04:02:22 Speaker 1 Well, does the contractor like that doesn't have to come back and bite you if you're structuring your subcontracts properly. You know, you can protect yourself. Like, don't give your framer the last 10% of his draw until it's been signed off on. By the engineer, I mean, trust me, he wants that last 10%. He's going to come back and do that punch list. 01:04:02:22 - 01:04:12:22 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Right. You can build a framework, you know, a contractual framework to make sure that you know, it doesn't it doesn't impact you much at all. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's a good point. 01:04:12:22 - 01:04:27:00 Speaker 1 I mean that that does go back to having trade partners who are sophisticated enough to handle that, and who have the financial means to, to where that last 10% being held for an extra 30 days isn't going to put them out of business. Yeah. 01:04:27:00 - 01:04:47:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I, you know, it's always a challenge. I understand with some of the sub trades, the frustration of that 10%, because a lot of times, especially some of the ones that finish early on, maybe some of the dirt work people and different stuff like that, like they feel like, well, we're financing the entire job. Like our 10% is being held up way too long. 01:04:47:16 - 01:05:07:18 Speaker 2 So I get it, to a certain extent. But, you know, with other other sub trades in particular, I mean, I think it's a very smart way for a can't afford GC to, to deal with the situation, you know, to say, well, hey, until we get to the end and have this in this punch list there, there may be things that need to be corrected. 01:05:07:18 - 01:05:13:19 Speaker 2 And, you know, let's not we're not going to be able to pay you until we we get these things corrected. Yeah. 01:05:14:00 - 01:05:31:15 Speaker 1 I mean our, our, our policy is, is once once you are done on the job site, you know, you get paid like the foundation guy. We're not going to hold his until in the 18 months or the end of the job or whatever. You know, once we get through engineering inspections and kind of get his portion signed off on, I'm good to let him go. 01:05:31:17 - 01:05:49:22 Speaker 1 The dirt work, guys, same thing. But in the framer, hey, once once we get through all the, framing punch list and all the other trades have done their rough ins. Okay, you're you're good. Right? Yeah. But, you know, Hvac, plumbing, all those guys, you go all the way to the end of the job? Yeah, we're we're going to hold up a final payment until everything's. 01:05:50:00 - 01:05:51:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. 01:05:51:02 - 01:05:54:07 Speaker 1 It's commissioned. It's it's working. And everybody's. It was good. 01:05:54:07 - 01:06:01:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And and make sure that everything is good because sometimes it looks that way. And then, you know, stuff pops up man. Yeah. 01:06:01:06 - 01:06:27:23 Speaker 1 You know so that's kind of the last thing I wanted to say and wrap up is I think all the things that we're talking about, even though we've been talking about it in relation with contractors and homeowners, the same advice kind of goes to contractors dealing with their subcontractors. I mean, the same thing. So like when a contractor executes a subcontract with his plumber, be very specific. 01:06:27:23 - 01:06:38:19 Speaker 1 And what that guy supposed to do, I, I don't know how many plumbing bids I've seen from subcontractors that just say pumphouse, $32,000. 01:06:38:21 - 01:06:59:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. Or, I mean, at least you got some on paper. I can't tell you how many that. Okay, well, that's. Yeah, I was gonna say I can't tell you how many I've seen where there is no agreement. It's it's literally a text or an email, you know, order, like. Yeah, it's just the guys that I use all the time, I'm like, I'll see the I'll see the text or I'll see the email or, or I'll, you know, they'll mention the conversation. 01:06:59:13 - 01:07:16:01 Speaker 2 I'm like, well, do you have an MSA with them? Because I mean, like then, you know, I'm maybe a little bit more understanding if you've got an MSA in place and you're just kind of sending them out to different jobs, but right, without them at least a master sub agreement, I'm just kind of like, you're just out here naked right here. 01:07:16:03 - 01:07:41:10 Speaker 2 What are you doing? So I think that you see it a lot more residential, for sure, that people just have relationships with these, with these guys and they just, you know, play it fast and loose, but you got to have agreements in place. And like you said, they should be just as detailed, when it comes to specs, and expectation setting because that's how you avoid those situations where that sub gets in and they've bitten off way more than they can chew. 01:07:41:15 - 01:08:01:00 Speaker 1 Right? Just like anything else, like plumbing, for example. There's 20 different ways to terminate the water coming out of the wall. You know, where it's going to attach to your sink and your toilet or whatever. And, you know, I've seen a plumber rough it in, and then a homeowner come in and say, why was it done like that? 01:08:01:02 - 01:08:16:00 Speaker 1 Well, that's the way I always do it. Yeah, well, that's not what I wanted. I didn't want a plastic PEX fitting sticking out of the wall. I want a copper. Fitting coming out of the wall and then the subs, like, yeah, but those are $50 extra for every one that I have to do. Well, that's what I wanted. 01:08:16:02 - 01:08:41:01 Speaker 1 And then the, you know, and then and then the GC has to decide is he going to make the sub do it and make the sub eat it? Is the GC going to eat that cost? So yeah, it's, it's, it's being very, very specific with the subs all the way back at the beginning when you're issuing those pose, if you're doing that, which you should but don't, you know, don't, don't work off of a text message. 01:08:41:03 - 01:09:07:23 Speaker 2 Or a handshake, just a conversation that you're trying to recall or an email. Just get the get the agreements in place. And I think that I'm a big proponent of MSAs, even if you're not going to use that sub a whole, whole lot. And the only reason I say that is because a lot of times, to try and get a subcontract, I understand the frustration of trying to get a maybe a less sophisticated subcontractor or even sometimes a sophisticated one. 01:09:08:00 - 01:09:31:15 Speaker 2 There's a struggle with trying to get them to execute a pretty dense, you know, maybe a two page or three page agreement over and over and over again. Right. And every time you're they gotta review that and all of that, like, but if you can sit down and get them to execute, you know, one very comprehensive agreement one time, y'all discuss it, you know, you y'all are on the same page about that. 01:09:31:17 - 01:09:48:00 Speaker 2 Then all you're doing is issuing work orders, right on your next houses. Make sure your spec document is is down pat. Right. You got a really good spec document spec exhibit. And it's like, okay, well this is your scope of work. This is what you know, this is what you're going to be doing. This is how much you're going to get pay. 01:09:48:02 - 01:10:06:13 Speaker 2 If there's any modifications from the, MSA, you can address those there because, you know, different jobs are different. Maybe this home, we have to operate a little differently. Maybe your insurance requirements are higher or whatever. You know, you can address that. And it's a much easier agreement to get them to execute. So maybe it's a one page, maybe it's a half a page type of deal. 01:10:06:13 - 01:10:11:19 Speaker 2 And they're just executing that and they're much more comfortable after you've kind of banged out that that MSA. 01:10:11:21 - 01:10:31:07 Speaker 1 And if you're a contractor in Texas and you're a Tab member, there's a, there's a, a boiler plate version that you can use that's better. It's better than nothing. Exactly. That's the one that we use. And we took it made a couple tweaks to it to suit our purposes, but, yeah, it's a it's a good document, but that, you know, that outlines how they're going to get paid. 01:10:31:07 - 01:10:49:05 Speaker 1 What what the procedure is for them submitting invoices. And, you know, you send it on Friday, we'll pay you within X number of days after that however you want to structure it. Insurance requirements, making sure that the subcontractor has insurance, which is very, very important to. 01:10:49:06 - 01:10:55:22 Speaker 2 So they do it. They could be pretty pretty basic, but you'd be surprised. It's just crazy. It's crazy. 01:10:56:00 - 01:11:12:00 Speaker 1 We've lost a lot of subcontractors over over the years who didn't didn't want to get insurance. And we just had to say, you know, as as we've grown, as we've gotten more sophisticated, you know, if you want to continue to work with us, you have to you have to get your own liability insurance. 01:11:12:00 - 01:11:47:01 Speaker 2 Let me say this to, well, I'm thinking about it because I've had some folks where they've kind of gotten burned. You know, all insurance isn't equal, right? And so just you got to make sure that the sub has it has the insurance that they name you as an additional insured. Right. But you want to look at that policy to know these exclusions because, I mean, some of these exclusions are while that I'm saying I mean we've got we've gotten cases where we've gotten some significant, you know, judgments, some significant awards or what have you in arbitration. 01:11:47:03 - 01:12:07:06 Speaker 2 And then it's like collecting is I mean, if it's a sub, unless they're significant. So a lot of times you're not going to be able to recover. Right. And so you rely on that insurance. You rely heavily on that insurance. And so if there's an exclusion, you know, you got oh well this is a your work exclusion and this is the work that the sub performed. 01:12:07:06 - 01:12:41:13 Speaker 2 And so we're not we're not covering that. You know that's that's tough right. So you definitely want to make sure that the sub has not only that the sub has insurance. But you understand what the exclusions are. And to the extent that you're able to you get some of those exclusions eliminated. You you want to make sure that basically if the sub is performing defective work, that you're able to recover, and that if the if the policy is written in a way that doesn't allow that you're kind of game, you're gambling a lot more than you realize even when you have insurance. 01:12:41:13 - 01:12:55:23 Speaker 2 Because a lot of times people think just because the sub has insurance, that they're that they're going to be covered. And I get down the road and I'm like, hey, we're going to have to fight with the insurance in order to get recovery, right. So just something to think about. 01:12:56:03 - 01:13:02:23 Speaker 1 And that's that's extra hours that they're paying you or, or another attorney to fight with the insurance company over that which is going to come out of their settlement. 01:13:02:23 - 01:13:24:14 Speaker 2 It's nothing more frustrating than and when you get like for clients, it's it's nothing more frustrating than when they, they win, but they ultimately lost because, you know, they've got what what we call a moral victory. I mean, you've gone you spent money on attorneys. You've, you know, gone through and spent all this extra time, you spent money on experts. 01:13:24:16 - 01:13:46:21 Speaker 2 You've got a piece of paper that says want you won, but there's nowhere to collect the money from or you can't collect. The money is frustrating for everyone because it's frustrating for me, even, you know, yes, I may have gotten paid, but I. I don't like having clients feel like they got the short end of the stick. So even though I've won and I get to yeah, we want, you know, so on and so forth. 01:13:47:03 - 01:14:10:14 Speaker 2 Collection is very important because the ultimate goal is not just winning at trial and getting a judgment. It's making your client whole. Right? That's the whole reason you do. You want to try to make your clients hold as possible. And so I think that on the front end, yeah, you want to definitely make sure that the insurance is in place, that the liquidity is in place that you're working with, with companies that have skin in the game. 01:14:10:14 - 01:14:30:15 Speaker 2 Because if not, that's just an increased risk to you as a builder or homeowner, depending on which one you are. You need to understand that if these folks don't have insurance and they don't have the capital or liquidity, they could just file bankruptcy, right? And and you'll never you'll never see a dime. And so that that's at at risk. 01:14:30:15 - 01:14:37:23 Speaker 2 And you have to I'm not saying you don't do business with them, but what I am saying is you need to understand that risk so that you can plan for it. So. 01:14:38:02 - 01:14:53:22 Speaker 1 Absolutely. All right. Well, I think that's about all the time we have for today. So Ken Stevens, appreciate you joining me today and always good to see you. So real quick give a plug for your, your company, website, your social media, all that stuff that you want to throw out there. 01:14:53:23 - 01:15:14:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. For sure. Stevens, Reed and Armstrong plc. Like I said, we were a litigation boutique here in Houston. You can check us out at SRA. PLC's. Com. We have a office here in Houston, and we actually recently opened an office in Dallas. I think it was like late last year, strong litigation firm growing, mostly commercial stuff. 01:15:14:21 - 01:15:36:04 Speaker 2 So, like I said, if you're, we like to say if it's a civil dispute involving two businesses, we will definitely take a look at it and see if we can get involved. We've got a pretty healthy team of about 13 lawyers now. And so, you know, we can we can handle most matters, very, very easily. So give us a call if you, you know, if you need if you need representation. 01:15:36:04 - 01:15:37:19 Speaker 2 And we're happy to take a look at it. 01:15:37:21 - 01:15:40:05 Speaker 1 And also appear in a lawyer, an urban winery. 01:15:40:06 - 01:15:50:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. For sure. Now, if you're downtown Houston or future, Victory Park Dallas, if you, you know, are into wine, are you just looking for something different to do? A lot of folks that come to us or just looking for a different experience? 01:15:50:12 - 01:15:51:07 Speaker 1 Date night? Yeah. 01:15:51:08 - 01:16:15:17 Speaker 2 Date nights, girls nights. We get a ton of those, or they just kind of come out and, it's a wine tasting. So we're not a wine bar. We actually produce the wiser. So what it is, is, is just kind of very similar to California. You come in or maybe Fredericksburg, you come in, you sit down. A, wine, Somalia or wine associate is going to give you a guided wine tasting experience, completely interactive. 01:16:15:19 - 01:16:31:17 Speaker 2 They're going to talk to you about each individual wine, how it's made. The grapes are use to talk to you about the brand. And then I'm going to talk to you, about our wine club, you know, during the process. So we've got a very strong wine club. It's growing. We're really happy about it. They get all kind of perks and benefits. 01:16:31:17 - 01:16:36:04 Speaker 2 They're basically, you know, the cool kids. So yeah. So that's kind of how that goes. 01:16:36:05 - 01:16:44:16 Speaker 1 So awesome. And be sure and follow Kenneth on on LinkedIn, check out all the valuable posts that he puts out there as well. So again, thanks for joining me. 01:16:44:16 - 01:16:46:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. Thanks again man. Thanks for having me. 01:16:46:11 - 01:16:57:18 Speaker 1 And thank all of you for joining us on this episode of your project Shepherd podcast. We will see you next time. Thanks. 01:16:57:20 - 01:17:22:00 Speaker 1 If you found this helpful, enjoy listening. Please support us by liking and subscribing here on your podcast platform. And also join us on our YouTube channel. We want to continue to bring you high quality content and expert guests, and your support truly helps us to continue this journey. If you have any questions for me or my guests or any feedback for us, you can email us at podcast at your project shepherd.com. 01:17:22:02 - 01:17:22:18 Speaker 1 Thanks again.