00:00:05:16 - 00:00:29:22 Speaker 1 Hello friends. Welcome to the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson, and we are here to teach that every successful construction project has four components demonstrated by the simple drawing of the house. The foundation is proper planning. The left wall is your team, the right walls, communication and the roof is proper execution. Have all four of these components in place and your project will succeed. 00:00:30:00 - 00:00:52:21 Speaker 1 We are here to help professionals and homeowners alike make the best decisions about designing, planning, and building custom homes. If you'd like more information about how Shepherd can help you with your project or business, visit us at your project shepherd.com. And now, here's today's episode. 00:00:52:23 - 00:01:04:14 Speaker 1 Hey everybody, welcome back to a new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson, and I am joined for the second time by my friend David Cox with design DCA. Thank you. Welcome, David. 00:01:04:17 - 00:01:05:18 Speaker 2 Appreciate you having me back. 00:01:05:18 - 00:01:26:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Good to have you back. Today we are going to talk about, strategies for designing a cost effective home. Or kind of getting the most bang for your buck when you're designing at home. Right. And, you know, I think that you and I are both, but of oftentimes you're the first person to kind of have the touch with the client. 00:01:26:13 - 00:01:36:12 Speaker 1 And we are we always run into this, this struggle of the client's dreams, their big dreams for their dream home versus the realities of budgets. Right? 00:01:36:13 - 00:01:39:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. It is definitely a constant struggle. 00:01:39:21 - 00:01:50:16 Speaker 1 So how do you, as a designer, balance, that that dream with with the reality kind of what what's your what's your basic philosophy on dealing with that problem. 00:01:50:18 - 00:02:17:10 Speaker 2 Oh well it's a multi approach you know multi-point thing that we have to touch on regularly throughout the process. We of course question the clients in the initial meeting of what their expected contract budget is. Construction budget is what their expectations are. You know, they show them all of their beautiful inspiration photos, you know, many of which come from California, very high end homes, expansive walls of glass, window walls, etc.. 00:02:17:10 - 00:02:39:16 Speaker 2 So, you know, more often than not, one of the first conversations that comes up is reminding them that we are in Houston, Texas, not, you know, San Diego. So we at every point, we're just trying to point out the reality and the importance of certain things. You know, natural light, great. A 20ft wide opening, not really necessary in Houston, you know, to speak to that specifically. 00:02:39:16 - 00:03:00:11 Speaker 2 So we offer alternatives, get the same size, get it, get a 16ft, slider versus a stacking door, pocket, door, etc.. It's just little things like that that kind of go on throughout the entire process. Roofing material or, you know, metal roof versus composition, etc., all of those things. 00:03:00:12 - 00:03:19:10 Speaker 1 In regards to those doors. I mean, again, here in Houston, most people have have these thoughts of having their doors wide open, having a big party and having people flow in and out. But in reality, most of the time or most times here, the doors never get open. So we and as a as a as a just a cost driver because those doors are expensive. 00:03:19:10 - 00:03:23:10 Speaker 1 I mean we tell people to plan on maybe $1,000 a linear foot for those doors. 00:03:23:10 - 00:03:24:16 Speaker 2 That's exactly what I say. 00:03:24:18 - 00:03:41:03 Speaker 1 And you can, you know, you can achieve the same open look with just fixed window units, right? Still get lots of natural light. Definitely. And cut that down from $1,000 a foot, you know, maybe a $20,000 set of sliding doors. Cut that down to maybe 2 or $3000 worth of windows, right? 00:03:41:05 - 00:03:58:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a huge item right there that we discuss on virtually every project. Honestly, it's one of our most common cost discussions is trying to, instill that reality of the humidity and the mosquitoes we have here, reminding them of that reality. And, you know, we're in one of those few times of the year right now where they could actually enjoy it. 00:03:58:02 - 00:04:00:09 Speaker 2 But yeah, how often is that, you know, so. 00:04:00:11 - 00:04:17:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was at some of these party, I think back over Christmas and they had some very large sliding doors, and I think that they felt like they just had to use them since this, since they, since they paid for them. And it was, you know, this Christmas was not cold and it was very humid outside. And they had those doors open. 00:04:17:21 - 00:04:19:21 Speaker 1 It was not comfortable in the house. 00:04:19:23 - 00:04:23:01 Speaker 2 Especially if it's a formal event and you're in a jacket, etc.. 00:04:23:02 - 00:04:28:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. And they were also running the barbecue grill outside and guess, guess where all the smoke from the grill was going, right? 00:04:28:10 - 00:04:31:14 Speaker 2 Yes. Another reality that we don't think of. 00:04:31:19 - 00:05:05:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. So yeah there's, there's, there's lots of good alternatives. So, so during, during the early in the design process, you know, it's asking the question early, right, about, about budget, which is something that we always talk about here is just establish that baseline. Exactly. Very early and check it against reality too. I mean, so if they come to you and, you know, everyone does this, they've got like a list of, you know, I want five bedrooms and a game room and a study and a wine room and, blah, blah, blah room, and but I want a 3500 square foot house. 00:05:05:23 - 00:05:07:01 Speaker 1 Yes. Right. 00:05:07:01 - 00:05:41:04 Speaker 2 That is also extremely common. Yes. I mean, I wouldn't say every project, but, you know, and it's common. I mean, it's understandable because people don't know what 3500ft² looks like in general, unless you do this day in and day out like we do. Right? But yeah, it's a regular occurrence to get a wish list that is a 5000 square foot house and a request for a 4000 square foot house, etc. and that's one of the key things that we stress is assembling the team early on so that they're not just hearing this from me, they're hearing it from the builder as well, who knows the pricing day in and day out. 00:05:41:04 - 00:06:01:14 Speaker 2 And, can reinforce, you know, what I'm saying, and tie that together with their expected, desired construction budget and just, you know, trying to figure out where we can either rein them in or if they're willing and able to increase their budget, which, you know, can be a bit of a frustration at times because, you know, a lot of people don't like talking about money. 00:06:01:14 - 00:06:28:19 Speaker 2 You know, so it's they'll tell us one thing, but then as you keep saying, you know, you're going over, you know, you're adding cost, etc., it's just kind of a nod and go on some. It's that anxiety of, you know, can they really afford this? And they're just kind of hedging their bets. Or when the bids come in, are they going to be frustrated and disappointed and angry at everybody, even though we tried to tell them all along, you know, it it seems to be 5050. 00:06:28:19 - 00:06:45:20 Speaker 2 It seems like a lot of people kind of are hedging that number a little bit when they tell us what their desired construction cost is, and then when it comes in 20, 25% more, ultimately they want what they want. And you know, yeah, can oftentimes actually afford it. It's just not what they had hoped for initially. 00:06:45:20 - 00:07:21:05 Speaker 1 So yeah, I was meeting with some people this week actually, who and this was about a renovation, but they and so we walked through the project, in my head, I'm kind of adding up $800,000. And at the end I said, well, have you guys set a budget for this project? Which is something I always try to ask at the very first meeting, or have you already set a budget for the project because they said they talk to other contractors and she and she said, yeah, I was trying to keep it around 350 when we first started. 00:07:21:07 - 00:07:33:04 Speaker 1 And and the architect who's a friend of mine was also there and, and and she said, yeah, but I was telling him that I know we're adding some costs, something, you know, I'm thinking maybe it's going to be like 450 or 5 now. 00:07:33:05 - 00:07:34:06 Speaker 2 I'm right. 00:07:34:08 - 00:07:55:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I said, well, I think that's I think that's really light. I said, I think you're going to be a good bit more than that. And so we, we talked a while and we built some more rapport. And she said, okay. She said, I know it's going to be more than that. I didn't want to tell you a number earlier, but I'm more comfortable with you now so I can afford maybe up to 650. 00:07:55:15 - 00:07:58:17 Speaker 1 Okay. Was like, okay, okay, well that's that's. 00:07:58:17 - 00:07:59:08 Speaker 2 More reason that's. 00:07:59:08 - 00:08:01:23 Speaker 1 A delta that we can certainly. 00:08:01:23 - 00:08:02:05 Speaker 2 Work. 00:08:02:05 - 00:08:05:03 Speaker 1 Through design. We can work, you know, work with that. 00:08:05:03 - 00:08:05:16 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:08:05:18 - 00:08:30:09 Speaker 1 But my point is that people oftentimes are very guarded with their financial situation. And the first number they tell you is oftentimes not the real number, which is frustrating, right. Because, you know, we're we're trying to help them plan for success. And if they're not open with what their realistic budget is, if they're always telling us a low number, they're just fighting themselves. 00:08:30:11 - 00:08:56:16 Speaker 2 It's a common occurrence. And it is, as you say, quite frustrating at times. And we've had we've had them go both ways. I mean, I had one, last year where, you know, every step of the way, things kept getting larger, higher ceiling heights, more square footage, more glass. And we remind the client we're diligent about reminding the client this is a cost item, you know, this is going to be an overage, etc., etc. we're not looking at the original cost per square foot that you told me you wanted. 00:08:56:16 - 00:09:12:11 Speaker 2 And at the end of the day, they ended up selling the lot and buying a preexisting home. Once they got the bid back from the builder. Even though, you know, we've done our best to educate them all along the way. But on the flip side, we often get ones who are definitely kind of hedging their bets a little bit and ultimately move forward happily. 00:09:12:13 - 00:09:13:13 Speaker 2 You know, with the design. 00:09:13:13 - 00:09:23:03 Speaker 1 Honestly, I would rather see them get to that point and sell the lot and walk away from it than try to find somebody that tells them what they want to hear. Exactly. Right. 00:09:23:03 - 00:09:28:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the worst. That's the worst scenario. They're they're just setting themselves up for trouble at that point. 00:09:28:06 - 00:09:47:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. We yeah. As a consultant, those are the types of jobs that I get hired on the most to go in and back clean up or to or to help sort things out is when they, you know, they've got three builders that tell them, hey, this this house is, you know, 1.5 million, that's way out of budget. 00:09:47:00 - 00:09:52:10 Speaker 1 I found a guy that said he can do it for 900. Okay? 00:09:52:12 - 00:09:53:20 Speaker 2 And and it's a bad sign. 00:09:53:20 - 00:09:58:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then they get they get, halfway through it and realize that's not a real number. 00:09:58:23 - 00:10:26:21 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah, we we see that as well. We had a client a couple of years ago that we ultimately ended up not doing the work for them. We decided it just wasn't a good fit because of some red flags we were seeing early on. And, the home actually was under construction close to where I live. So I witnessed it setting at a good point stage for probably about 18 months before it finally kind of kicked off again and slowly, gradually got finished up. 00:10:26:21 - 00:10:34:20 Speaker 2 But, it's just going with the lowest. The person who tells you want to what you want to hear is, is just not typically the way to go, obviously. 00:10:35:02 - 00:10:53:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's a couple of, Facebook groups that I kind of keep an eye on just for, partially for entertainment value and partially right. Every once in a while, I'll jump in there and kind of make a comment and try to try to get some good advice. But, you know, there's a lot of Facebook groups out there dedicated to people discussing building their houses and designing their houses. 00:10:53:13 - 00:11:11:08 Speaker 1 And, you know, what I see quite often is they'll say, hey, I'm in Houston, Texas. My designer and my builder are telling me this house is going to be 400 bucks a square foot. I know that I can build it cheaper, and you'll see all these people from around the country chime in and say, oh no, that's way too expensive. 00:11:11:08 - 00:11:24:10 Speaker 1 You know, you can build that for for $200 a square foot and people will get it in their head. Yes they can. They can build a house in Houston for, you know, middle of Kansas prices maybe. Right? 00:11:24:10 - 00:11:25:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:11:25:03 - 00:11:33:11 Speaker 1 And and instead of listening to the people who they, they hired. Right, right. They'll start listening to 20 people on the internet instead. 00:11:33:13 - 00:11:57:08 Speaker 2 That's telling them what they want to hear, know that's the answer they're looking for. It's just not the right answer. So obviously costs vary wildly regionally, even from here to Austin. Yeah. We occasionally do projects over in Austin. And, you know, I've learned not to quote the same expectations here. If it's a, if it's an Austin based project, it's it's significantly more with topography site work. 00:11:57:11 - 00:11:58:17 Speaker 2 I just labor even. 00:11:58:17 - 00:12:01:02 Speaker 1 Just at the subcontractor base and and everything. 00:12:01:08 - 00:12:02:01 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:12:02:02 - 00:12:07:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. A house that costs. Yeah. Whatever. 300 bucks a foot here might be 500 bucks a foot in Austin. 00:12:07:22 - 00:12:23:05 Speaker 2 You just nailed it on the numbers that we dealt with. Yes, we you know, we had a client that was wanting to stay in that $300 foot range, and we designed what we were comfortable with. And it it actually did end up coming back pushing $500 a square foot. So yeah, we're, you know, reevaluating and trying to figure out how to help them out. 00:12:23:09 - 00:12:43:21 Speaker 1 So it's wild. I, I know some people who are, who are builders in Houston who are moving into the Hill country to open an office or maybe just to move their operation of the Hill Country and, they're telling me that like electricians, plumbers, a lot of the tradespeople are double out there what they are here. And it's not because the materials are more expensive out there. 00:12:43:21 - 00:12:49:03 Speaker 1 It's just the labor is more scarce and the guys are crazy busy, so they're going to charge more. 00:12:49:05 - 00:13:08:04 Speaker 2 Definitely. I've heard the same thing on the foundation and stucco etc. all all across the board. We've got a remodel project on Lake Travis over there right now. That's one of our our long time Houston builder friends and associates, and it's his personal house, and he's finding out the hard way. It's a completely different scale over there with the rates. 00:13:08:06 - 00:13:23:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, we did a job in the Fredericksburg, last year. And, it was a Houston client who was doing some work there, and we ended up driving subcontractors from Houston paying for hotels, and it was still cheaper than hiring the local guy. 00:13:23:16 - 00:13:26:10 Speaker 2 That's funny. That is a big difference. Substantial. 00:13:26:12 - 00:13:40:11 Speaker 1 So I know that, you know, obviously you have the ability to design a lot of different styles of homes, but, you know, looking at your website, you seem to focus more on, modern transitional design. Is that a fair? Is that a fair assessment? Yes. 00:13:40:11 - 00:14:01:22 Speaker 2 Most definitely. My personal favorite is kind of all out dwell magazine, modern, you know, Cubist forms, flat roofs, etc.. But we've kind of found a niche for ourselves, somewhat unintentionally, but I'm happy with it. And kind of the transitional modern category where we kind of take more classical architecture forms and modernized, put a little unique twist on. 00:14:01:22 - 00:14:19:13 Speaker 1 Them as a builder, I know that modern stuff, although it looks simpler, can be more expensive to build. Right. The just the the big the big spans, the clean lines that are required, it just requires a higher level of subcontractor detail and all that. 00:14:19:13 - 00:14:38:06 Speaker 2 Right? It does. And that is a common misconception. You know, the perfect example that a client and I were just having a discussion about last week is the the no baseboard. Look where you have the sheetrock going down to the wood floor with a little sheetrock mold or something at the bottom. Super clean, very sophisticated kind of museum quality look. 00:14:38:06 - 00:14:52:02 Speaker 2 But to do that properly is, you know, very costly, very labor intensive. And this happened to be a remodel. So that, kind of made it even worse. He was dealing with walls that weren't necessarily all plumbing square from the original foundation. 00:14:52:02 - 00:14:52:22 Speaker 1 That's out of whack. 00:14:53:03 - 00:15:01:04 Speaker 2 Right. Exactly. So little things like that, that just. Oh, there's no baseboard. That must save me money. You know, that's definitely not the case. 00:15:01:05 - 00:15:06:05 Speaker 1 Oh, well, it's hard to find it hard to find a drywall guy that's capable of executing that. 00:15:06:05 - 00:15:25:16 Speaker 2 Well, it is. It really is. Yeah, it's an art. And, you know, the level five finish on the walls, the smooth finish on the walls versus being able to kind of hide some little flaws here and there with some texture, etc.. All these things definitely at cost. And we try to advise clients on that to come to us and modern and, you know, try to find that happy medium where they're still getting that modern look. 00:15:25:17 - 00:15:55:06 Speaker 2 You mentioned the open concept and the large spans. I, I think there's such a thing is to open up a concept. You know, we, I like room definition. So even when we have large expansive areas where typically still speaking out some drop beams and some areas to kind of define spaces, you know, an occasional column here and there, wing wall, etc., that can kind of help not only define the space, but at the same time reduce those span so we, you know, can try to avoid steel beams, etc., when we when we need to when you know what. 00:15:55:09 - 00:15:56:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a budget item. 00:15:56:16 - 00:16:08:21 Speaker 1 So yeah. So that was kind of where I was going with that was when we're doing more modern design and transitional design that tends to be more expensive. What are what are some other strategies that we can employ to control those costs? 00:16:08:21 - 00:16:42:20 Speaker 2 A lot of it, you know, we kind of already touched on a big item with the windows earlier. You know, IA6 foot by six foot fixed glass window is a is a pretty impressive piece of glass, but yet it's also a somewhat, in the whole scheme of things, affordable window, you know, compared to other things. Yeah. You know, you put a series of of three of those across the back of a living room looking at to the landscape in the pool and that's, you know, 18ft of glass in a fairly economical fashion, versus other alternative roofing is always a big thing with transitional modern, we often tend to have traditional pitched roofs, which allows 00:16:42:20 - 00:16:58:10 Speaker 2 for, you know, more standard composition shingles versus having to go with, you know, in a flat or a very low pitched roof, a TPO or a standing seam metal, which obviously adds a significant amount of cost. So we always advise on that. And, that tends to work well with the transitional style versus all that modern. 00:16:58:15 - 00:17:20:16 Speaker 1 So on the interior details, you know, you were talking about the, the, the, the new baseboard look or the oftentimes, you know, we've done the flush baseboards or there's a reveal between the baseboards and the drywall. Right. But, you know, some, some alternatives that we've come up with for that, that I think still achieve the modern look are, on, on the interior doors using a curved jamb. 00:17:20:16 - 00:17:32:08 Speaker 1 Yes. To where you've got a, an L molding, basically that's going to get, slip into a slot, cut in the into the door jamb, and then just do an applied baseboard on top of the. 00:17:32:11 - 00:17:33:06 Speaker 2 Exactly, 00:17:33:08 - 00:17:51:08 Speaker 1 On top of the drywall. And you could use, you know, instead of a one by four. That's big, real thick and chunky. You can, you know, use a half inch or a kind of a standard baseboard that's, a little, you know, less obtrusive. And you can achieve a real clean look that way without wanting going to, you know, that expense for cost. 00:17:51:08 - 00:18:08:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'm a big fan of curved jambs, you know, in a variety of styles. You know, we've done a lot of old world designs as well where we've done curved because that's kind of replicate your old school plaster walls and those types of assemblies where there wasn't as much trim work, in certain styles. So big fan of that, simple baseboards. 00:18:08:08 - 00:18:27:09 Speaker 2 We have a lot of our builders that will go, you know, even though it's clean and simple, still a larger baseboard like 6 or 8in. So they can turn the the outlet sideways and put them in the baseboard. Just kind of cleans everything up and gives that kind of slick, modern, sophisticated look without, you know, all the overly costly details at times. 00:18:27:15 - 00:18:34:18 Speaker 2 And the curve jambs obviously are a little more, but still, in the whole scheme of things, that's not as expensive as other things that can take place. So yeah. 00:18:35:00 - 00:18:49:08 Speaker 1 I think I think cabinets in modern design actually can be a decent savings as long as you're not going with like a, like a high end stain grade cabinet. Like if you did a paint, a painted, or a melamine, cabinet, those can actually be pretty affordable. 00:18:49:08 - 00:19:14:19 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. There's some good, great looking choices in modern style cabinetry that don't have to break the bank. You know, you get into the German and the Italian stuff. Obviously it's a little different, but, looks great, but that's super expensive. But there's much more affordable alternatives for that. And in modern, you know, a melamine finish, a paint grade finish tends to be a lot more acceptable, a lot more common than a stain grade finish, which obviously can cost more. 00:19:14:19 - 00:19:18:18 Speaker 2 So that that's an area where we can help a little bit with saving some. 00:19:18:18 - 00:19:31:20 Speaker 1 This cabinets can actually be less expensive than a real heavy traditional house on the cabinets, because they have less of the moldings and, less of the kind of the multi piece door and exactly and all that kind of stuff. 00:19:31:20 - 00:19:35:12 Speaker 2 So nice flush panel doors and, you know, no crown etc.. 00:19:35:12 - 00:19:45:09 Speaker 1 So yeah, you could even go no hardware on modern and do like, like a fingernail or a touch latch or something like that. And exactly even save some money on hardware that way too. 00:19:45:10 - 00:19:51:07 Speaker 2 So because that can add up as well. You know, if you go with a, you know, high end brand that gets costly very, very quickly. 00:19:51:12 - 00:20:10:19 Speaker 1 Let's talk about, kind of big picture stuff as far as how it drives cost. I think some people get hung up on saying, oh, well, I'll just cut back on my countertops and my tile and I'll save money that way. But I usually tell people, you're not going to save that much money by cutting back on your finishes. 00:20:10:23 - 00:20:20:20 Speaker 1 Going from, you know, 3000 a slab to 2500 a slab or 1000 to 800 a slab, you're not going to save that much money on your countertops. 00:20:20:22 - 00:20:21:09 Speaker 2 Agreed. 00:20:21:11 - 00:20:26:11 Speaker 1 Right. So you've got to approach it more from the kind of the big picture items. 00:20:26:11 - 00:20:27:00 Speaker 2 Right. 00:20:27:21 - 00:20:47:16 Speaker 1 And so, you know, let's talk about some things that kind of drive the, the big cost. And, and to me it starts with foundation. Right, right. And so if you've got a big spread out house, yes, you're poor and a lot more concrete. Right. And, and the more complicated your shape is, the more expensive it's going to be. 00:20:47:16 - 00:20:56:02 Speaker 1 So keep a slab compact, right? Don't start putting a lot of angles and extensions on it. Yeah, a simple foundation is going to be cheaper to work. Right? 00:20:56:04 - 00:21:19:14 Speaker 2 Always. Yeah. And, you know, more reliable typically too, especially if you're going the post engine route versus a structural slab with void boxes and piers. Simpler is in the form is is definitely better. And you know, that kind of leads into the one story versus two story. The size of the foundation. You know, any time you can double your square footage off for the same size of foundation and same area of roof, that's, you know, a win win for the budget, definitely. 00:21:19:16 - 00:21:39:23 Speaker 1 In regard to foundation types, I think maybe 20, 30 years ago, post tension got kind of a real bad rap, right? Which is kind of, I guess when it first came out, maybe 80, maybe the 90s, it got I'm not sure if it came out then, but it was it was pretty popular when if were back in those years, 90s, early 2000. 00:21:39:23 - 00:22:00:19 Speaker 1 Right. And I think there were a lot of them being done badly. In fact, here in the city of Bel Air, where we are, they they outlawed post engine foundations back then because there's so many problems. But, you know, I spoke to, a couple of engineers that we work with all the time. And, you know, they'll tell you that a properly built and post engine foundation is going to perform very well. 00:22:00:20 - 00:22:19:19 Speaker 2 That's what I've always heard from our engineers that we work with as well. It's not something we really shy away from. You know, if it's a, if it's a big sprawling slab with all kinds of wings projecting out here and there and everywhere and, you know, wing walls for courtyard walls, etc.. Then, you know, maybe it's not the right way to go. 00:22:19:19 - 00:22:33:13 Speaker 2 Right? But if you're talking a more typical, yeah, even if it does have some, some expanse to it or some some projections to it, within reason. Yeah. I've never been afraid to to go that route to save the clients some money. 00:22:33:18 - 00:22:52:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. Same here. So a a foundation, of course. I haven't priced one out in a few months, but, you know, they were running, you know, maybe like $9 a square foot for a post engine slab, whereas the more you know, I'll call the kind of the Cadillac slab on void boxes with, a lot of steel, a lot of grade beams. 00:22:53:17 - 00:23:00:20 Speaker 1 Those are maybe 18 to $20 a square foot. Right. And so that's a pretty big savings just right off the bat. 00:23:00:20 - 00:23:16:05 Speaker 2 Most definitely. And it's interesting to hear you say those numbers because, you know, we don't deal with the numbers day in and day out like you do. I quiz my builders every once in a while on certain things, you know, not only just cost per foot, but kind of kind of dialing down to foundation cost, etc. but I hadn't asked that question recently, so yeah, interesting to hear that. 00:23:16:05 - 00:23:17:08 Speaker 2 So it's about double. 00:23:17:08 - 00:23:30:17 Speaker 1 It's essentially double. Yeah. Yeah. Right off the bat if you can save 50% on your foundation now again it's got to be installed properly. So that kind of goes back to making sure that you have your engineer come out. 00:23:30:19 - 00:23:32:02 Speaker 2 Do the proper inspection. 00:23:32:07 - 00:23:53:00 Speaker 1 Do the inspections, double check. These guys don't don't trust them. But you know, if it's done properly it's a good it's a good foundation, a great another, cost saving strategy that we've done several times in the last few years has been, doing a chemical soil injection. Okay. And it's kind of newer. Some of the engineers are like. 00:23:53:00 - 00:24:18:07 Speaker 1 And, I don't know, some of them are very, very okay with it, but, again, we've gone from, you know, we have soil that has a high, plasticity, a high PVR. And they're speaking out 15ft peers over, you know, 70 to 100 peers, 15ft deep at 350, 400 bucks a pop. And you can take those away by just treating the soil. 00:24:18:08 - 00:24:21:08 Speaker 1 Okay. That's a that's a big a big savings, do I? 00:24:21:08 - 00:24:23:19 Speaker 2 Honestly, I'm not familiar with that. That's interesting. Okay. Look into that. 00:24:23:21 - 00:24:24:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Check it. 00:24:24:07 - 00:24:25:12 Speaker 2 Out. Learn something new every day. 00:24:25:12 - 00:24:43:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's a couple companies that we've used that do that. And essentially they come around to the big rig, a bobcat with a big injection rig on the front of it. You know, it has a, a chemical solution. And they walk around and stick these big needles in the soil and inject this chemical, and it removes the plasticity. 00:24:43:02 - 00:24:54:05 Speaker 1 And, I think the last house we did it on the treatment cost 20 or $30,000 to do, but the it saved, I think 70 or 80,000. 00:24:54:05 - 00:24:56:19 Speaker 2 I mean, that's that's huge. That's so a no brainer. 00:24:56:21 - 00:25:00:23 Speaker 1 So they shave 50 grand off the cost of their foundation by by going that route. 00:25:01:00 - 00:25:06:01 Speaker 2 Okay. That's awesome. I will have to look into that. Definitely. Yeah. So how deep does the injection go? 00:25:06:10 - 00:25:11:00 Speaker 1 I want to say it goes 20ft, but, no, don't don't don't quote me on that. 00:25:11:01 - 00:25:12:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. No. That's interesting. 00:25:12:04 - 00:25:30:15 Speaker 1 That's really interesting process. They actually hook up the machine to the to the, to the fire hydrant on the lot. And so they're getting high pressure water. They have to rent a special meter from the city to hook on to their machines, to meter the water as they go. But it's interesting. And you can use it on foundation repairs to get you. 00:25:30:15 - 00:25:52:06 Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah. So I've got an old 1950s ranch, and here in the Meyer land area, and our is terrible. Okay. And, I was fixing it multiple times, so I had them come out and treat the perimeter of my house, and it's it still moves a little bit better, way less than it did before. So it's a good foundation repair alternative, too. 00:25:52:06 - 00:25:54:21 Speaker 2 That's good. That's very interesting. I'm happy to hear about that. 00:25:54:21 - 00:26:08:12 Speaker 1 So anyway, starting with the foundation, there's there's a great way to, to to to consider saving some money on your build. Structurally. I don't think there's that big of a difference to go between a two by four and a two by six wall. It's a very nominal difference. 00:26:08:12 - 00:26:32:13 Speaker 2 Right. Exactly. And I've had this conversation with multiple builders lately as well. I may have asked you at one point, you know, with, with the prevalence of spray foam insulation and just being so much more efficient, I kind of started to question, my go to has always been two by six exterior walls. Unless it's a real budget minded project and the the client tells me, you know, stick with two by four, that's just kind of our default is two by six. 00:26:32:13 - 00:26:57:07 Speaker 2 And I started wondering how necessary, important that that really was with, you know, high performance installations, etc.. But, everyone I've asked is said it's still still worthwhile since it is such a minimal cost just for the extra, wiring space, keeping wires out of the insulation, the plumbing, etc.. Yep. All all of those things. And, and plus a lot of the, the homes we deal with have, ceiling heights greater than ten feet. 00:26:57:07 - 00:27:05:18 Speaker 2 So then, you know, from a structural engineering point of view, we either have to double the two by four studs or go with a two by six. So at that point it just makes sense anyway. 00:27:05:18 - 00:27:25:16 Speaker 1 So yeah, I think that trying to stick with the standard dimensions, as far as like as it applies to dimensional lumber can make a difference. You know, we talked about open spans. You know, once you get over a certain span, you got to switch to engineered lumber versus, versus standard framing lumber. 00:27:25:17 - 00:27:26:03 Speaker 2 Right? 00:27:26:03 - 00:27:42:04 Speaker 1 I love what you said about, you know, giving the spaces some definition and mixing in some, some drop beams, in some case openings, things like that, a way to define the spaces, but that also can save you. Yeah. Steel framing it can save you big engineered beams or it can save some good framing cost. 00:27:42:05 - 00:28:02:21 Speaker 2 Exactly. Something we often have to discuss and educate our clients on is, you know, the battle of square footage is related to cost. And, you know, I come from a builder background. That's that's the core of my training, is working for builders early on. And anytime you can stack things, it's more efficient. So. Yeah, that's, that's the mentality I use in design. 00:28:02:21 - 00:28:20:17 Speaker 2 And you can't always pull it off. You know, we have to offset walls on the second floor regularly obviously. But whenever we can stack them with a first floor wall, interior or exterior, that's always our first attempt. And we have a client that is trying to shave, you know, 300ft². And they're like, well, I can, you know, move that second floor wall in 18in. 00:28:20:17 - 00:28:46:19 Speaker 2 I don't need that. But then you have to explain that, well, okay, you you saved ten square feet, but you might have just cost yourself $1,000 beam underneath that wall that was stacked on an exterior wall and no longer is. You know, people get so hung up on the cost per square foot number that they don't, understand that all of that actually does eventually get bid out, you know, per the frame package, per the engineering, etc.. 00:28:46:19 - 00:28:54:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. And if we can, if we can save on that frame package and beams and all of those things that that helps them in the long run. 00:28:54:05 - 00:29:10:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think that again, comes from the mentality of, you know, so-and-so said it cost 300 bucks a square foot to build a house, you know. Yeah, I use the price per square foot. I've said this many times on here, I use the price per square foot as a very loose frame of reference. 00:29:10:06 - 00:29:10:15 Speaker 2 Right. 00:29:10:16 - 00:29:14:22 Speaker 1 It is in no way to be taken as is gospel numbers. Right. 00:29:15:00 - 00:29:36:18 Speaker 2 And that's all it should be, is is a loose frame of reference. I mean, it's a it's a good process starter. You know, topic of conversation. But it's there's just way too many variables in the design and selection, the site conditions. You know, do you have a 30ft long driveway or, you know, 20,000ft² of flat work with a circle drive and pool decking and etc.? 00:29:36:18 - 00:29:39:02 Speaker 2 It's just that there's so many variables that go into play. 00:29:39:02 - 00:29:51:15 Speaker 1 The back to the framing. You know, also by not stacking walls or having things that are offset like that, you could also be shooting yourself in the foot with, running, mechanicals and things like so and things like that, that can, that can drive up cost to. 00:29:51:16 - 00:30:06:12 Speaker 2 Yes, definitely. Definitely. The simpler the form, the more things sag, the more you're going to save. You know, it doesn't always lead to the most beautiful dream home if it's a two story box. But, you know, if you're out for budget, that's that's the cheapest way to go. 00:30:06:15 - 00:30:29:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, one thing that I don't think is a good place to try to save money is going to, I usually like to buy 12 ceiling joist and things like that. I, I'm, I'm a huge fan. I like all I will do is, is open web trusses. Okay. I'm a big fan of that for running mechanicals because it saves. 00:30:29:10 - 00:30:38:03 Speaker 1 It saves so much time. You're not having to maybe create chases, that that in places where you don't want them. 00:30:38:03 - 00:31:02:07 Speaker 2 Yes. And where the same with a few rare exceptions. Everything we do is floor trusses. Not not floor joist. We spec typically a 20 inch deep one, so there's plenty of room for Hvac runs, etc. and they, you know, can handle long spans. But it's definitely a good way to spend your money versus to buy twelves and again, you get into additional beams, you get into fir downs everything, or. 00:31:02:07 - 00:31:04:17 Speaker 1 TJ or something like that where you're having to cut big. 00:31:04:17 - 00:31:05:08 Speaker 2 Holes, right. 00:31:05:11 - 00:31:07:19 Speaker 1 Big holes in them, which isn't, is not ideal. 00:31:07:19 - 00:31:08:08 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:31:08:08 - 00:31:21:14 Speaker 1 I think so from an energy efficiency perspective too. There's certain things that that we need to yes, you could save money by doing it, but you know, are you shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to efficiency or building performance too? Right. 00:31:21:14 - 00:31:44:02 Speaker 2 Exactly. We always kind of stress, you know, as a the first line of defense, good windows, good insulation, high sear rating on the Hvac. And then if you want to take it above and beyond that with heat pumps, etc., you know, that's if the budget allows. That's that's great. That's awesome. But you know, start with kind of those three core basics of good insulation, high sear and good windows. 00:31:44:03 - 00:32:06:18 Speaker 1 So they also have to think about factoring operating cost or cost of ownership versus upfront cost too, because, you know, many people are coming from owning an older home that might have a higher cost of ownership. And so they're factoring, a lot of utility costs and maintenance costs that they won't necessarily have on a newer, high performance, well-built home. 00:32:06:18 - 00:32:21:22 Speaker 2 So definitely cost savings to be out there and sometimes very substantial. You can go from $600 a month electric bill to, you know what, 75? You know, I mean, it's it's really radical how different a high performance home can be on your utility cost. 00:32:22:00 - 00:32:31:03 Speaker 1 I know that you work with Turner as well. I'm building performance stuff. Is that a conversation that you have, or do you kind of pass it to Turner or let him let him, you know, the conversation or what? 00:32:31:05 - 00:32:53:01 Speaker 2 It's a little bit of both. I let Turner handle the the high end level of it. Definitely. He is, far more educated on it all than than I, but we, we kind of try to give that that basic information and explain what, what services he can provide to take it, you know, to the next level and truly above and beyond and performance and let him handle that. 00:32:53:03 - 00:33:11:11 Speaker 1 You know what? One thing that I should have started with this, because it's kind of goes back to even before Foundation. And as I'm scrolling through my notes here, I'm I'm realizing that I missed something. So, so one of the one of the kind of the the foundations, if you will, of, of of having a cost effective project starts even before the foundation. 00:33:11:11 - 00:33:21:15 Speaker 1 It's, even before design. It's just going back all the way back to site selection. Yes. Right. Certain certain building sites. You're just going to create challenges. 00:33:21:15 - 00:33:22:06 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:33:22:06 - 00:33:29:21 Speaker 1 Period. And so again, most people, I think it's safe to say, are going to come to you and to me after they've already bought a. 00:33:29:21 - 00:33:31:06 Speaker 2 Lot most of the time. 00:33:31:06 - 00:33:51:16 Speaker 1 Yes, unfortunately. Right. But, you know, in, in a perfect world for me and for you, I think that they would involve, involve you before they even purchase the property. That way you can advise them as to, you know, hey, if you're especially if you're on a budget. Yes. This may not be the best property for you. 00:33:51:18 - 00:34:10:10 Speaker 2 Exactly. I agree completely, but as you say, unfortunately that's rarely the case. It does happen occasionally, which is nice to be able to kind of do some some side analysis and some education upfront before they make their decision that it's potentially too late. You know, we've got we don't have topography to deal with typically in Houston, which can be a big cost factor in other places. 00:34:10:10 - 00:34:20:21 Speaker 2 But we have other issues such as floodplain and, oversize lots that required attention, although that's kind of been backed off of a little bit. And help, help. There's a few projects here lately. 00:34:21:09 - 00:34:23:11 Speaker 1 But it's it's on again. Off again. Yeah. 00:34:23:11 - 00:34:40:06 Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly. You know, we have, I think, two under construction right now where, you know, if we can get it re permitted, if the builder can get it permitted by the new standards, it's literally like a $60,000 differential off of what would have to go in versus what can go in there. 00:34:40:06 - 00:34:55:18 Speaker 1 I'm about to strangle the city when it comes to that. Right now. We, we had a client where it was originally permitted under the old rules. We had to do the tension. Then they said, hey, the new rules are out, right? You don't have to do it. So we resubmitted it and they said, oh, we changed our minds. 00:34:55:23 - 00:35:15:05 Speaker 1 We're we're not going to do that. You're back to it. And then it was and then it was on again. And so we we resubmitted and they said, well you could only resubmit it. Sorry. You can't resubmit it. And we'll see. Resubmit the entire project. You can't just do the drainage. So we tabled it. We moved on. We put the detention in okay. 00:35:15:07 - 00:35:30:14 Speaker 1 And then I get an email from the city saying, oh, by the way, we changed the rules again. And now you can read re permit just the detention. So in like a three month span we went from. Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. No. And finally it was too late and the client had spent $30,000 on child detention to get. 00:35:30:14 - 00:35:34:03 Speaker 2 It done and be able to move them. Yeah. You know, it's frustrating for everyone. 00:35:34:03 - 00:35:36:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. They're not on my good illustration. 00:35:36:06 - 00:35:37:18 Speaker 2 Understandable. 00:35:37:20 - 00:35:46:23 Speaker 1 So, other than that, what are some other, kind of site considerations that can cause, it can cause big price increases. 00:35:47:09 - 00:36:01:17 Speaker 2 Well, this isn't so much a site consideration, but just the municipality. You know, West, you have certain requirements. The city of Houston doesn't. And some of those do add extra cost. Five, eight sheetrock everywhere. I think they still require copper piping, I believe. 00:36:01:19 - 00:36:03:06 Speaker 1 I think so, 00:36:03:07 - 00:36:18:05 Speaker 2 You know, Bel Air has, certain exceptions, but often homes in Bel Air require a fire sprinkler system these days. So there's things like that that can vary, you know, from from street to street, literally sometimes, depending on where you are and what municipalities. 00:36:18:05 - 00:36:20:21 Speaker 1 Memorial villages require fire, fire sprinklers. 00:36:20:21 - 00:36:21:18 Speaker 2 They do. Right. 00:36:21:18 - 00:36:29:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. And and again we mentioned this earlier, but like here in Bel Air there's no, no postage on slabs. You've got to you got to do the, the slab in the void boxes. 00:36:29:15 - 00:36:32:08 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's huge. 00:36:32:10 - 00:36:50:13 Speaker 1 And then again flood plain. So it, it is a big cost penalty to have to raise that house up. You know, whether it's whether now whether it's 3ft or 8ft, there may not be that big of a cost increase. But just, just just getting it up off the ground, having a elevated slab is going to add cost. 00:36:50:13 - 00:37:20:10 Speaker 2 It does. And then plus the, the pre-construction pre-construction items such as the mitigation study, drainage plan that has to be done by a civil engineer. You know, we do we do some of the our drainage plans on, on non floodplain projects where it's just a very rudimentary kind of slope and swale and. Yeah, you know, if you catch basins here and there but if it's floodplain it has to be done by a civil engineer along with the mitigation study and just the, the cost of that raised foundation flood vents, everything that goes along with that. 00:37:20:13 - 00:37:42:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so one, one kind of cost savings strategy when it comes to houses in the floodplain that we've done successfully a couple times now is, you know, you can if you have to raise the house five feet, let's say for floodplain, why not raise it eight, stick the garage under it. And again you're stacking you're saving. You're saving area. 00:37:42:13 - 00:37:55:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So if you can, gain some efficiencies of scale by putting like a garage, a covered outdoor living space under the house, storage rooms, all that kind of stuff that, you know, you can save a lot of money that way. 00:37:55:12 - 00:38:14:03 Speaker 2 Definitely, anytime you can reduce the size of that footprint. Whether it be, you know, living space, garage space, outdoor spaces, etc. if you can compress that, you're saving dollars and post. Harvey, we've we've seen we've done a few of those projects, you know, places where previously, we would have had to have raised, you know, four feet. 00:38:14:03 - 00:38:24:09 Speaker 2 Now all of a sudden it's, it's seven feet. So as you say, you know, why not at that point, it just makes more sense to do it kind of kind of Galveston style, you know, Bay House style, where you got the the garage storage underneath. 00:38:24:09 - 00:38:26:18 Speaker 1 And it doesn't have to look like a beach house, you know. No, no. 00:38:26:18 - 00:38:27:09 Speaker 2 No, not at all. 00:38:27:10 - 00:38:32:20 Speaker 1 You can do some great, some great design and have it look really attractive. Right. With that well feature. 00:38:32:20 - 00:38:45:02 Speaker 2 It doesn't require the breakaway walls and stuff like we would, you know, in the coastal areas it can just look like a 2 or 2 and a half story home. But that that first floor is garage, unfinished, whatever it may be. 00:38:45:05 - 00:39:11:03 Speaker 1 I think another consideration that that comes into play a lot with with smaller properties like infill, smaller lots is going to be, utility placement. So, you know, here in Houston, we're dealing most of the areas with the power lines that are all above ground. And, you know, there are a few things that are more frustrating than starting construction and realizing that that power line is it's too is too close to the structure. 00:39:11:07 - 00:39:17:21 Speaker 1 So, you know, having to keep the house away from power lines can sometimes be a struggle. 00:39:18:02 - 00:39:19:18 Speaker 2 It can. 00:39:19:20 - 00:39:21:16 Speaker 1 You know, a radius that has to be maintained. 00:39:21:16 - 00:39:48:08 Speaker 2 Right? And especially if it's discovered late in the game after the fact, etc.. Several projects we have actually gotten the power line height and location data from the surveyor. As good as they can approximate it anyway. Yeah. And then we've actually modeled that line into our SketchUp 3D model of, of the property, and then done a ten foot radius that we extrude along that and kind of a, a red, you know, no go zone. 00:39:48:08 - 00:40:04:11 Speaker 2 So yeah, a client can understand if they want an apartment over their detached garage in the back, you know, you can we can do that. But it's it's got to step in, you know, eight feet, ten feet from the back of your garage wall. And those are very important things to plan for properly, and not find out the hard way after the fact. 00:40:04:11 - 00:40:33:08 Speaker 2 And it's, it's hard to convince people sometimes because the city of Houston or Cedar Point or whoever it may have been, was very lax on that for quite some time. I mean, you can go in these neighborhoods with, where detached garages in the rear are very prevalent with two story conditions and see homes that really aren't all that old, where you could, you know, virtually reach out and grab a power line, grab it, you know, so they see that on their neighbors and like, well, they did it, you know, but it's they've really as they showed, they've really cracked down on that a lot in the last few years. 00:40:33:12 - 00:40:46:09 Speaker 1 And some of the cities do require that you that you do that power land profile in West you Bel Air, they require that the, the surveyor show that data. Exactly. And that it's shown on, on the, on the plans for for submittal to. 00:40:46:09 - 00:41:01:22 Speaker 2 Right. I think that's a good decision. I mean, it's wise. I mean, it's it's always better to find out these things safely rather than later. That can be frustrating at any stage, you know, and kind of dashed your hopes of what you want above the garage, etc.. But it's just. Yeah, far better to know it sooner rather than later. 00:41:01:22 - 00:41:27:02 Speaker 1 I, I think you should required. I was, I was consulting on a project, recently where, the center point guy made it, made a site visit, after the house was framed and had siding on it and made him stop work, and they had to reframe the entire back of the house. Yes, it's, I think, three feet in which, you know, it was cost, but it also really affected their design. 00:41:27:07 - 00:41:27:15 Speaker 2 Most. 00:41:27:15 - 00:41:33:00 Speaker 1 Of I mean, the whole map, the whole master suite was across the back of the back of the second floor, and all of a sudden it's three feet smaller. 00:41:33:00 - 00:41:40:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's, you know, they have to try to do something like that on the fly to keep things moving is, not an ideal situation by any means for anyone. 00:41:41:00 - 00:42:08:17 Speaker 1 Let's talk about, some, some multi-purpose spaces as a way to kind of keep size under control. You know, we talked a while ago about people wanting all these rooms in their house, but yet having a need to to keep to a budget. So one of the things we always talk about are creating some creating some multi-purpose rooms and, you know, saying, you know, do you really need all the kids to have an en suite bathroom, right? 00:42:08:18 - 00:42:11:14 Speaker 1 Or can your two boys share a bathroom? Is it okay? 00:42:11:14 - 00:42:31:07 Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly. That started being a hot button. Oh, jeez. Probably almost ten years ago now or so. It seems like in the higher end, you know, 4000 505,000 square foot enough homes. The en suite, used to be quite common, for several large scale homes. We did. You know, you might have one en suite in addition to the primary. 00:42:31:09 - 00:42:47:16 Speaker 2 And then the others were were Jack and Jill. And it just it hit a point where we had a client where we had to go back near near River Oaks. It wasn't River Oaks proper, but it was near River Oaks. And, we had to kind of do a redesign and remodel at the end because the builder was just getting too much pushback on the Jack and Jill situation. 00:42:47:16 - 00:43:05:08 Speaker 2 And you know what, at that time was probably a 1.5, $1.6 million home. So, in that price range, we make every effort to do en suite if the budget allows. But, we certainly have those cases, like you're saying, if you've got, you know, two boys and a girl, hey, you know, give the girl the en suite and make the boy share. 00:43:05:08 - 00:43:34:19 Speaker 2 It's not the end of the world. Flex spaces are great. Some people get too wrapped up in the idea of resale. You know, one of the first questions we always ask a client. Is this a five year home or is this a forever home? Somewhere in between, you know, and if it's if it's the 1520 forever your home, we you know, we we really stress, you know, do what works for you don't don't overbuild because you've got a realtor friend that's, that's telling you it has to be X amount of square footage and X amount of bedrooms and baths in this neighborhood. 00:43:34:19 - 00:44:04:14 Speaker 2 That's valuable information, but it doesn't necessarily pertain to you because 20 years from now, those standards are going to have completely changed, and you can't predict and build for that properly. Now, we incorporate a lot of flex spaces where, like second floors in particular will have what equates to the size of a comfortable bedroom and possibly has just a small closet built into it, or like a wardrobe cabinet or something versus a walk in closet, but it does not have a bath attached. 00:44:04:14 - 00:44:24:18 Speaker 2 You don't have access to a whole bath that also maybe serves the game room on the same floor, and that becomes the perfect second home office, exercise room, occasional holiday guest bedroom. You know, whatever you need. We do that a lot in our spec home plans, actually, too, because you, you know, in spec home design, we're trying to cast a broad net. 00:44:24:18 - 00:44:43:17 Speaker 2 We're, we're trying to appeal to as broad of an audience as we can, you know, quite know obviously, what the ultimate buyer is going to want. So we try to give that flexibility in cost effective ways. A 12 by 14 extra room. It's sheetrock and flooring. You know, it's it's not additional plumbing fixtures. It's not additional appliances. 00:44:43:17 - 00:44:47:00 Speaker 2 It's relatively, you know, cost efficient square footage. 00:44:47:04 - 00:45:03:22 Speaker 1 Right. Back during when Covid hit, everyone started wanting, like, two studies and, and, it's funny now that so much, so many companies are back in the office and not at home, I wonder how many of the two study situations people are like, oh. 00:45:03:22 - 00:45:04:23 Speaker 2 Why do I how did I do that? 00:45:05:02 - 00:45:24:09 Speaker 1 So, I mean, I like the idea of trying to combine, you know, a study or a potential second study if you think you really need it with a guest suite. Yes. Maybe if you want to study on the first floor, maybe also consider making that a guest suite for older guests who don't have to hike up the stairs. 00:45:24:09 - 00:45:47:13 Speaker 2 Exactly right. That's a very regular thing that we do and recommend to the most of our clients tend to ask for that. They're already educated and think those things through. But, if if they have not potentially thought of it, it's something we always bring up to have, you know, a full bath access not directly connected to the study necessarily, but adjacent to and with a shower so that it can serve as a, as a sleeping area if need be. 00:45:47:15 - 00:46:13:04 Speaker 1 And then for for master suites, primary suites, I guess we're calling them now, flip flop, primary master, whatever. So I think everybody sees in the pictures the big fancy bathtubs and, you know, the very elaborate shower combo tub enclosures, which look really cool. It's funny how many projects, how many remodel projects I've done where we go in and remove a bathtub. 00:46:13:07 - 00:46:30:07 Speaker 1 Exact. People say I never, you know, we paid for this bathtub. We built the house. We've never used this bathtub. Yes, it happens real life with Jacuzzi tubs, with jetted tub. Right? Definitely. But. But even even soaking tubs, I've had so many people say, you know what? We we built this. We just never use it. Let's. Well, yeah. 00:46:30:12 - 00:46:32:05 Speaker 1 What's a yank and put something else there. 00:46:32:05 - 00:46:45:05 Speaker 2 We get that question all the time in new new construction design as well. Do I really have to do it. And you know, it goes back to that. Is this a five year homeowners is a 25 year home. And if it's a long term home for them, we encourage them. If you're not going to use it, why are you spending the money on it? 00:46:45:05 - 00:46:54:21 Speaker 2 You know, just either reduce square footage or have a larger shower or have a larger closet, you know, whatever, we can benefit from that space. But if you're not going to use it, it's silly, you know? 00:46:54:21 - 00:47:14:19 Speaker 1 So, yeah, it's it's, it's square footage that you're paying for. It's not just it's not just the air conditioned square footage. It's the most expensive square footage that you can build. It's got an expensive tub and a faucet and tile and maybe a countertop wedge and. Exactly. Gotta do that. I like all this stuff, like crammed into a small area. 00:47:14:19 - 00:47:21:18 Speaker 1 So that's that area probably costs you $1,500 per square foot to build, not $300 per foot. 00:47:21:18 - 00:47:32:21 Speaker 2 To build it. Yeah, most definitely. It's it's very expensive. You know, the kitchen and the bathroom obviously are the two most expensive parts of the home. So yeah, you can save in those areas. That's great. 00:47:32:23 - 00:48:00:03 Speaker 1 People don't think as much about how how the, the outdoor living spaces can really drive their cost to talk about expensive square footage. Right. Like, yes, if you want to save money, you know, like, you could double the size of your game room or your bedroom and not spend that much money, but, you know, put that same square footage into an outdoor space where you're doing tile or some sort of decorative flooring. 00:48:00:03 - 00:48:07:10 Speaker 1 You're doing outdoor cabinets, countertops, grills, ceiling fans, wood ceilings, all that stuff. Right? 00:48:07:12 - 00:48:08:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. 00:48:08:12 - 00:48:13:14 Speaker 1 You know, that's that's that's not 300 square foot foot. No, square footage. 00:48:13:14 - 00:48:34:06 Speaker 2 Exactly. It's still the same foundation cost. It's the same roofing costs. You know, as you mentioned, you know, the tongue and groove or a beadboard stained wood ceiling is very common. Depending on the columns used, etc., you know, that can get elaborate and expensive if there's a lot of bracketing, steel columns, etcetera, depending on the style. So it's definitely not cheap. 00:48:34:06 - 00:48:56:00 Speaker 2 Square footage, and it's something that people don't factor in when they're thinking, okay, $300 a square foot, 5000ft², 1.5 million. Well, not if you've got, you know, 1500 square feet of outdoor living space and three car garage, four car garage, etc. you know, it. That all still costs something, even though it's not rolled into that discussion. Yeah. When we're talking about cost per square foot. 00:48:56:00 - 00:49:20:03 Speaker 1 You throw a, you know, a 30 by 15 porch on the back and you throw a front, a front porch on there. And, that adds up to, to be some, some, some costly stuff. The nice thing about outdoor spaces is you can frame it, do a real basic finish on it, and then maybe five years later when you get a bonus or at work or something, you can. 00:49:20:05 - 00:49:21:10 Speaker 2 Then you build your summer kitchen. 00:49:21:11 - 00:49:23:19 Speaker 1 Throw some money at it and build it out. Right? Right. 00:49:24:01 - 00:49:39:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. We we typically spec, a gas outlet and hose bib. You know, what we assume is probably the best location for a summer kitchen to be built in at a future date. If the client doesn't want it right now or or possibly never. You know, we have a few clients that are like, I'm never going to cook outside. 00:49:39:13 - 00:49:44:01 Speaker 2 Why would I do that? You know? So, but we still kind of prep and prepare for it. 00:49:44:03 - 00:50:07:18 Speaker 1 Is it, what's your opinion on, framing out kind of future space inside the house? You know, we've we've done some, I've seen a lot of people that say, I'll just I'll have this, this unfinished space in my, in my attic that I'll convert later. What's your what's your thought on on using that as a strategy. 00:50:07:19 - 00:50:26:16 Speaker 2 It's good in certain scenarios. In the long run, that space is always going to cost you more, you know, to do it later versus at the time of construction. But I think it can be a wise decision. We've actually got a project right now near Spring Branch, where, the street is, is oversize lots, you know, large homes. 00:50:27:03 - 00:50:52:18 Speaker 2 Probably the average square footage of new construction on the street is in the 6 to 6500 square foot range, but this client, they're they're just more practical. They they know 40 500ft² is what they want, what they need, what they'll use. But we are preparing about 1000 to 1500 square foot of bonus space off the second floor that can be finished out, by them if they change their mind or their family grows at some point. 00:50:52:18 - 00:51:16:03 Speaker 2 Or, you know, the ideal situation behind it is for that future owner that, they don't want to deter a buyer ten years from now by being, you know, 40 500ft² instead of 6000ft². So they're being proactive and thinking ahead and preparing for that so it can be a good situation, especially for a young couple, maybe who have one child now, but you know, more in the future, etc.. 00:51:16:13 - 00:51:23:11 Speaker 2 To get you in the neighborhood you want, in the home you want now and then finish up that space later as as budget allows and the need arises. 00:51:23:14 - 00:51:47:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, you you might shave again. You're you're still spending the money on the structure, yet you're still you still have the roof line to cover it. You're still probably running some electrical and plumbing to that area to be able to add it in the future. So you're still incurring some costs on it now. But yeah, maybe you're saving, you know, 15, $20,000 by exact not putting in the drywall in the paint, the trim and the flooring and all that stuff. 00:51:47:13 - 00:51:59:22 Speaker 2 So yeah, and if you don't need the space now anyway, then, you know, that's kind of a, a good scenario. But, it's not a, it's not a magic bullet to save a ton of money necessarily. You know, it is still costing you something, obviously. 00:52:00:04 - 00:52:19:19 Speaker 1 Right. But as you mentioned a minute ago, if you already have, so if you're planning it properly in like that, that future bedroom is going to be served by an existing bathroom, right. Or something like that, then that that's a better scenario than, you know, running all the extra plumbing and electrical to add it, add another future bathroom. 00:52:19:19 - 00:52:27:02 Speaker 1 So yeah. Yeah, good. Good design, good planning. Can can save you some money from when it comes time to do that. 00:52:27:05 - 00:52:28:14 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah. Certainly can. 00:52:28:16 - 00:52:35:17 Speaker 1 Because again finishing out a bedroom not that expensive. Finishing on a bathroom. Yes. Very very expensive. Yes. 00:52:35:17 - 00:52:39:23 Speaker 2 Exactly. Especially if it's not pre plumbed in the proper location and all of those things. 00:52:40:00 - 00:53:09:11 Speaker 1 So yeah I know we said earlier, you know again the kind of the big items are going to be where your real savings are. Things like foundation you know roof types you know, window types even going from, yeah, a little bit of a wood window to a vinyl is a big price swing, right? Right. But, you know, you can rely some savings on your interior finishes as well, although it's not the it's not the $50,000 chunks. 00:53:09:11 - 00:53:33:12 Speaker 1 It might be the it might be the 2 to $10,000 aggregate for those items. Right. I think that some people get hung up on, on certain brands and certain types of finishes or something they have to have because, you know, when you go to a showroom and you've got the base model sitting next to the tricked out model, you're always going to be drawn to the tricked out model. 00:53:33:12 - 00:53:50:00 Speaker 1 Right? I try, I try to the council people that if you only saw the base model sitting there, you'd probably think it's pretty nice. Exactly. It's like you're kind of disregarding it because you're sitting, because you're looking at it in context with the very expensive one. So that's, it. 00:53:50:03 - 00:53:50:11 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:53:50:12 - 00:54:04:07 Speaker 1 So sometimes it's better not even have the side by side, but, you know, until you can spend 2 or $3 a square foot or you can spend $20 a square foot or more. 00:54:04:08 - 00:54:04:22 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:54:05:00 - 00:54:18:15 Speaker 1 On, on tile. And when you're talking about four bathrooms and a house, plus your backsplash and, you know, patio, you know that that delta of 2 to 20 can add up to a pretty good chunk of money. 00:54:18:15 - 00:54:43:00 Speaker 2 It really can, I've noticed just in the last few years just, you know, go to floor and decor and wander around a little bit. I mean, the variety at affordable prices is really pretty incredible that there seems to be a lot more affordable or semi affordable choices these days than there was just ten years ago. You can really get some some great looking, very design minded tiles and finishes for for a reasonable amount. 00:54:43:02 - 00:55:12:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Same same thing with countertops, wood floors, all those things. Now it's it's definitely important to point out that there, there is a difference in quality. Sure. You know the, the, the less expensive stuff is generally going to be, you know, made, made overseas, which a lot of it is anyway. But it, it has to do the thickness of the material, the, the finish that's on it, the quality, just the, the quality that goes into it sure can make a difference. 00:55:12:11 - 00:55:38:03 Speaker 1 I mean, I've seen cheap, cheap tile, crack and have issues. So, you know, just know what you're buying. Right. Sure. It's, know that when you do go to the, the 2 or $3 square foot, it's it's not just the it's not just the price. Right. There's there's some quality sacrifice as well. But again, not everybody needs to be driving a, E-Series Mercedes. 00:55:38:03 - 00:55:42:01 Speaker 1 You know, some people should probably be driving the the Honda Accord. 00:55:42:03 - 00:55:44:01 Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. 00:55:44:01 - 00:55:45:10 Speaker 1 So nothing wrong with that. Right. 00:55:45:15 - 00:55:46:05 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:55:46:05 - 00:56:02:14 Speaker 1 So, you kind of to kind of wrap up our discussion, I think that, you know, back to one of our first points, I think the most important thing is to be honest with your team about your budget, definitely to be open, right. 00:56:02:16 - 00:56:23:21 Speaker 2 And be open to the feedback that we're going to give you. You know, if you come in with a 6000 square foot wish list and so you want 40, 500, you know, put a little trust and confidence in us and realize that we've done this a few times and we know what we're talking about. And, you know, either be prepared to spend that extra money or have those hard conversations with your partner or your spouse and say, you know what? 00:56:23:21 - 00:56:38:09 Speaker 2 What do we really need versus versus what do we want? You know, do we really want to do that fifth bedroom just in case we need it two times a year? You know, it's you got to have a reality check sometimes and to try to dwindle that square footage number down. 00:56:38:11 - 00:56:53:15 Speaker 1 Yep. So be honest, be realistic, listen to feedback. And again involve the team early in the process. You know, again, if you can if you can do it before you go out and buy the piece of property. Right. We will love you for it. 00:56:53:16 - 00:57:10:20 Speaker 2 You know, I'm glad you brought that up again. That is something we stress all the time. Please don't please don't work with us all the way through design and then start going and interviewing builders. You know, it's now's the time to be doing it. And ideally, we like people to select a builder, you know, either pre design or during design. 00:57:10:20 - 00:57:22:16 Speaker 2 Not just be speaking with them and interviewing them, but actually make a selection so they can be there as part of the team and, do some preliminary pricing rounds as the as the design progresses versus waiting until the end. 00:57:22:18 - 00:57:23:00 Speaker 1 Yep. 00:57:23:00 - 00:57:27:06 Speaker 2 So that's something I can't stress enough. 00:57:27:08 - 00:57:49:01 Speaker 1 And then again, also please listen listen to the feedback that we give you. And don't, don't think that you can get something for nothing. Don't don't think that you can hear. Yeah. From your design team, your builder. Hey, this is 400 bucks a foot. And then expect that you can actually go out and pull it off for, for 250 just because you want it for 250, you know. 00:57:49:06 - 00:57:54:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Well it's not going to be a good end result if if at all. 00:57:54:17 - 00:58:06:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So we we all want to see successful projects. We want to see the stuff that we design. Yes. Get built. We want to see happy happy clients had referrals. 00:58:06:23 - 00:58:19:16 Speaker 2 You know, Christmas cards coming in the following year. All the things, you know, we all want the same result. You just have to change expectations. Be willing to adapt those expectations sometimes to get you know, where you need to be budget wise. 00:58:19:18 - 00:58:24:23 Speaker 1 Exactly. All right. Well I think that's going to do it for today David. Okay. I appreciate you, coming in to join us. 00:58:25:04 - 00:58:26:14 Speaker 2 Happy to do it. Thanks for having me. 00:58:27:00 - 00:58:33:01 Speaker 1 Mentioned where you're, where you can be found on the on the web and on the socials and all that stuff. 00:58:33:01 - 00:58:53:19 Speaker 2 Right? Yeah. It's, website is designed a.com. Just a company name, and then same on Instagram. Just design DCA. And that's kind of our, our two prominent things. We're on YouTube as well, with some videos of projects either in the works or completed something. We're kind of trying to grow a little bit, but but the primary sources are Instagram and our website. 00:58:53:21 - 00:59:08:10 Speaker 1 Awesome. So always great to see you and, you as well. All right. Good luck and thank you all for joining us on, on this, most recent episode of your project Shepherd podcast. We'll see you next time. Oh, you forgot to push your cord. Yeah. Just kidding. 00:59:08:12 - 00:59:09:09 Speaker 3 Don't even. 00:59:09:09 - 00:59:35:04 Speaker 1 Just kidding. If you found this helpful, enjoy listening. Please support us by liking and subscribing here on your podcast platform. And also join us on our YouTube channel. We want to continue to bring you high quality content and expert guests, and your support truly helps us to continue this journey. If you have any questions for me or my guests or any feedback for us, you can email us at podcast at your project shepherd.com. 00:59:35:06 - 00:59:35:21 Speaker 1 Thanks again.