00:00:05:16 - 00:00:29:22 Speaker 1 Hello friends. Welcome to the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm your host, Curtis Lawson, and we are here to teach that every successful construction project has four components demonstrated by the simple drawing of a house. The foundation is proper planning. The left wall is your team. The right walls, communication and the roof is proper execution. Have all four of these components in place and your project will succeed. 00:00:30:00 - 00:00:53:01 Speaker 1 We are here to help professionals and homeowners alike make the best decisions about designing, planning, and building custom homes. If you'd like more information about how Shepherd can help you with your project or business, visit us at your project shepherd.com. And now, here's today's episode. 00:00:53:03 - 00:01:08:05 Speaker 1 Hey everybody, welcome back to this new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I'm Curtis Lawson, your host. And today we're going to talk about water management and the building envelope. And for that I am joined today by Miguel Gonzalez and Milt Rosato from Tamlin. 00:01:08:07 - 00:01:09:11 Speaker 2 Thank you for having us, Curtis. 00:01:09:15 - 00:01:10:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. Thank you. 00:01:10:16 - 00:01:21:08 Speaker 1 Excited to have you guys. So why don't you guys just take a minute to to tell us about what your, your, your role is, your position at Tamlin and kind of what you do for the company and how have you been there and all that good stuff. 00:01:21:10 - 00:01:41:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. I'll go ahead and start. I am a product specialist, but I belong to the specifications department for Tamlin. So we really are sort of in the forefront when it comes to education, right? So that education has a little bit to do with why things sometimes go amuck in the industry. But yeah, so we do a lot of Siu courses, but we also do a lot of job site training. 00:01:41:16 - 00:01:49:10 Speaker 3 Going on two years with Tamlin. So background is in education. So it kind of is a little fitting that I do education. So it works. 00:01:49:12 - 00:01:50:04 Speaker 1 Miguel. 00:01:50:06 - 00:02:10:17 Speaker 2 I am, the president and CEO. Tamlin. But, you know, I've been in the business for. Gosh, I guess it came with the building when I call it. I've been in the industry for 48 years, 40 some years of construction science with about 25 years of building science. I enjoy what I do, and, you know, we are a manufacturer of construction products since 1971. 00:02:10:17 - 00:02:36:15 Speaker 2 We manufacture products. We started initially with, flashing and structural metal connectors, for the hurricanes, clips and straps and all that basic products. And we evolved into manufacturing products with, water management in mind because we were following a lot of the industry and what we were manufacturing for other companies. So we were manufacturing companies, manufacturing products for the what I call the 800 pound gorillas. 00:02:36:17 - 00:02:57:16 Speaker 2 It's a little bitty company like us out of Stafford, Texas, was making products for large companies across the United States. So in in 2000 or so ish, we decided that it was time for us to build our own brand. We were making products for bigger companies while they were getting all the credit with our ideas. So going in 2000, in the 2000, we moved in their direction of our brand. 00:02:57:18 - 00:03:19:23 Speaker 2 Why not us? We were the ones that had the ideas. We are the ones that had the innovation. I know it's harder because when you're the little guy, no matter how good the product is or how much better than everybody else is, money buys stuff, okay? And that's the hard thing. The lesson that we've learned in our industry is that we might be 100 times better than the other guy, but the other guy still the 800 pound gorilla. 00:03:20:00 - 00:03:36:10 Speaker 2 And my hope is through this social media that we're in, the network that we're living in today is that the little guy in the big guy in the social media is the same size, and this is what we're doing is really hitting the market big with the social media to show the value of what doing it right matters. 00:03:36:10 - 00:03:57:23 Speaker 2 That's the slogan we always use when doing it right matters. This is what we're here to. Let's talk a little bit about the building envelopes and brain screens and the capillary breaks, and how important they are to protect. I used to hate to say this word that Mr. Big bucks. Mr. Big Bucks can afford to replace his home ten times, but Mr. and Mrs. Smith that borrowed money and that's the only home they'll ever own. 00:03:58:04 - 00:04:14:16 Speaker 2 We as manufacturers and as builders should build it like we're building it for Mr. and Mrs. Smith every single time. The unfortunate thing is that we don't. Because in today's industry, there's more investors that are not focused on Mr. and Mrs. Smith. 00:04:14:18 - 00:04:39:14 Speaker 1 Absolutely. You guys have been a fantastic partner for, for crafted for my homebuilding company. We've had your reps and you out on, on several projects in the past. You know we've for better or for worse, kind of become known for taking over projects that somebody else, made a disaster out of. And so we've stepped into a couple where, you know, the house had just been in framing stage and framing flux for a long time, a lot of water issues. 00:04:39:15 - 00:04:58:00 Speaker 1 The other builder was a bit about to just cover it up with some stucco and going down the road, and we said, you know, let's let's rip all this off and start over. Let's get the tip. The Tamlyn team out to talk about what the right products are to use in this situation. And so, you know, we're just super happy with, you know, your team and all the support that you always provide. 00:04:58:02 - 00:05:04:11 Speaker 1 And I actually think a lot of builders don't take advantage of the team members that you have for. 00:05:04:11 - 00:05:05:07 Speaker 2 Sure that they don't. 00:05:05:08 - 00:05:24:10 Speaker 1 That's true with a lot of manufacturers, like I think a lot of builders. In fact, until the last few years, I wasn't even aware that I could call numerous companies that we work with and say, hey, do you have a guy that you can send out to talk to us in the field about this? And so, you know, you have a fantastic team of very knowledgeable people that are happy to come out to the job site and help builders. 00:05:24:15 - 00:05:43:14 Speaker 3 And I think the ultimate goal for us is always to be used as a resource, right? We want to be able to ask people and kind of show them what doing it right means. And I think sometimes, on the architectural side, designer side, they often don't know that that's an option. So on top of the fact that a yes, a Q courses wonderful. 00:05:43:14 - 00:06:01:04 Speaker 3 They get their little credit. Everything's fine. They also get the added benefit of knowing that there's a full team out there that can support them, regardless of where they are, right? They're like, yeah, I'm out here and see, I don't. Fantastic. We got people in Seattle, you know, let's let's make that happen. So that's been a really, pivotal part of Tamlyn from the beginning. 00:06:01:06 - 00:06:14:09 Speaker 3 Always, always education and make sure that you're being used as a resource, because a lot of times these mistakes are just very simple. Installation or just design, oversights is a nice way to say it, but. Yeah. So. 00:06:14:11 - 00:06:40:01 Speaker 1 I think that it protects everybody in the food chain, right? It protects, you know, doing it right. Protects the homeowner. It protects the builder from liability. It protects, you know, obviously, if the builder and the in the installer do it wrong. That's not a manufacturer issue. And in fact, I had this conversation yesterday with somebody that most, most kind of quote unquote product failures aren't really product failures. 00:06:40:01 - 00:06:55:12 Speaker 1 The product itself has been tested and tested and tested, and it's generally not the product's fault. It's whoever put it in didn't know how to do it the right way. And so, you know, using those resources, you know, protects a lot of people in the food chain. 00:06:55:14 - 00:07:15:09 Speaker 2 Well, one of the things I've learned through education and, you know, like I said, as old as buildings, is that I have followed the Pareto principle. Okay. And wherever you go and whatever you do, we're always going to deal with humans, right? The predator principle tells us that 80% are not going to do it right. 80%. There's a 20%. 00:07:15:09 - 00:07:33:04 Speaker 2 So how do we find that 20% with the information highway that we are today? It's okay to get that feedback before you put it. Plug it in. And the educational classes we're dealing with, it's the last thing an architect can do is copy and paste and be okay with it, because there's an 80% chance you're using the wrong product. 00:07:33:06 - 00:07:41:22 Speaker 2 So I want you I want everybody to imagine the 8020 rule. Are you using that 20 or did you just copy and paste the other 80%? 00:07:42:00 - 00:08:06:12 Speaker 3 You know, on the specification side, things have kind of moved towards a plug and play approach, right? Everybody, especially the bigger firms do like the idea of once we've drawn it up, it's applicable regardless of where we are. Right. You laugh. But because you see how silly that is when we're looking at, building a home that's made out of wood, a stucco cladding versus using a fiber cement versus using a brick using a mixture of whatever it may be. 00:08:06:14 - 00:08:19:13 Speaker 3 There's a lot of variables. Right? So products not only oftentimes fail because of the insulation, but they fail because they're the wrong products for that kind of, water damage you're going to be getting. Right. And so they don't know what they don't know. 00:08:19:15 - 00:08:40:16 Speaker 1 I laughed because I was at a inspection for a house two days ago, and I was meeting with the architect and the builder and the homeowner, and they rolled the plans out, and the architect was like, you didn't follow the detail. And he pointed at a Tamlin detail on the architect's plans. And the builder said, well, I thought that the detail only applied to the Tamlin roof that we were putting on. 00:08:40:16 - 00:08:59:01 Speaker 1 I didn't realize it applied to the other things in the picture. You. Yeah. And so like they had and then the homeowners like mad at the builder because they didn't quote unquote follow the architect's plans. But like the detail that the architect dropped in didn't really apply to the whole situation. And so you got three people pointing fingers at each other. 00:08:59:03 - 00:09:08:08 Speaker 1 And it just started with, you know, just copying, just copy and paste and just copying something out of the plans, which it's a great detail. It just wasn't the right one for that situation. Yeah. 00:09:08:08 - 00:09:28:15 Speaker 2 It's important to do your homework. I mean, in Google, I'm a French model. Okay? I, I look like a mob boss. I'm not a French model by any means. But that's why everybody has to do their own work. Is that person who it is is that product the right way to do it? And don't listen to no disrespect to any dealer distributor out there making sure that it is the right product. 00:09:28:17 - 00:09:50:17 Speaker 2 The dealer distributors, their responsibility is to make sure they have product available. Okay, they're not the experts. The experts are the manufacturers and the building science experts, the water management. Those are your experts. And again, the disrespect, the dealers. They some of them are good answer that 20% I talked about. But the rest of it is 80% of that product in that distribution center is not the right product for you. 00:09:50:19 - 00:09:52:17 Speaker 2 You need to do your homework. 00:09:52:19 - 00:10:15:06 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And, you know, you guys, your team, y'all y'all are experts in many areas. And, I don't use that term lightly, but you're you're experts not only in the field of water management, but, you know, building science in general. So I, I love your content that you post on, on LinkedIn a lot for people who are listening, you're watching here on LinkedIn, Miguel posts some great stuff all the time. 00:10:15:08 - 00:10:22:06 Speaker 1 Not just about HTML and and about, building science, but also about leadership and life and spirituality and a lot of stuff. So every. 00:10:22:06 - 00:10:24:05 Speaker 3 Friday. So you can catch him every Friday. 00:10:24:06 - 00:10:52:18 Speaker 1 I love I love your stuff. So again today we're here to, to mainly talk about water management and the building envelope at water intrusion and moisture management, air sealing, all those are some of the top causes of construction defect lawsuits. And yet I still think that even even though they are so common, I think it's probably still one of the least understood topics among contract owners. 00:10:52:19 - 00:11:12:22 Speaker 1 It's the most important thing. It leads to all these this waterfall of issues. Is it is it just that it's too expensive to do it right? Or is it just that it's that complicated people to understand it or to the builders just not want to get on the ladder and and look at how something's done? I mean, what's what's going on? 00:11:13:00 - 00:11:37:00 Speaker 2 I think it's all the above. I again, I go back to that. What happens a lot in today's times is that we we definitely one I mean, we're in business, right? The builders and business. The manufacturers are in business. The dealers, distributors and business. We want to be profitable. And we always gravitate to the low hanging fruit. What we're looking for is something that can get the job done. 00:11:37:01 - 00:11:58:08 Speaker 2 I hate to say the code is a four letter word, right? So get it. Do the minimum and be the most profitable. So any time that you exceed the code, that means it's a niche thing. That means is actually going to do what it says it's going to do, okay. But that's going to cost me money. It's going to take some profit out of my project. 00:11:58:10 - 00:12:19:21 Speaker 2 Yes. But did you not want to do it right? And if you want to do it right, you're going to have to spend those dollars and then convince the consumer this is what you're selling. So you as a builder have to decide where do you want to stand? Do you want to be in the commodity, turn them, churn them, and then hope that you don't get sued because at today's time, it's $11 billion. 00:12:19:21 - 00:12:42:13 Speaker 2 Litigation on the building envelope per year, $11 billion growing okay. And there and these there's there's law firms out there today that are specifically targeting themselves in major zones for billing envelopes because they know it's low hanging fruit and they're going to get it remembered. Mold is gold. Yep. There was a time was okay. Right now is billing envelopes are go for them. 00:12:42:15 - 00:12:57:04 Speaker 2 They're focusing on these investors. They're not really true builders. They're just coming in and coming out to make their profit. And they're going to there's a 80% chance they're going to fail. That means there's an 80% chance these lawyers are going to get well. 00:12:57:06 - 00:13:23:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that you could probably go to almost any new I hate to make this generalization. I'm going to you could possibly go to almost, almost any of these little, little townhouse developments around town, that have been there for five ish years, put some fliers on the door saying, are you having any more problems and air quality problems, any water problems, and get a response, right, I think, yeah. 00:13:23:03 - 00:13:39:21 Speaker 3 Not to get you off. Julie and I were, one of my other colleagues. We were going to visit a job site, right? Taking pictures out of the behest of somebody else. And, as we were driving by, it's a very stucco friendly area in Houston. You know, stucco is, cumbersome in a nice way to say cladding. 00:13:39:21 - 00:13:41:08 Speaker 3 You have to design for it correctly. 00:13:41:10 - 00:13:44:18 Speaker 1 If you do it the right way, it's okay. But if you but most people don't do it the right way. 00:13:44:18 - 00:14:10:09 Speaker 3 Exactly. Especially if we're looking at five years ago. Right. Yeah. Whenever we become very stucco friendly. Oh, it's easy. You just put it up there and you're done not thinking about drainage, rain screens, all those things. And as we were going by, you could see the deficiencies in those existing buildings already popping up. And it was so glaring to see that it's not only this entire neighborhood, but it's if you go a couple streets down, it's that neighborhood, and you start to see the the key failures of not designing appropriately. 00:14:10:09 - 00:14:32:09 Speaker 3 Right. So maybe the materials that we're using behind there were installed correctly, but I would be willing to bet that it just wasn't designed and the correct materials were not used in that application. Right. So it's one of those things where we have to look to longevity, right? If we take a lot of pride in Team Tamlin, and if you're going to take the time to use our products, which are very, very high quality products, we want them to last the test of time, right? 00:14:32:09 - 00:14:49:08 Speaker 3 We don't want them just to be the, the lowest hanging fruit or the easiest option, if you will. And that comes with education. I think education is kind of the continuing, thing that keeps coming up in building science. Right? Is it that complicated? Absolutely not. Do you have to plan for it? Of course. Right. But it's pretty fundamental. 00:14:49:08 - 00:14:57:14 Speaker 3 A lot of the mistakes that are made are not technical mistakes that are you know, there are a lot of it is really obvious. Once you actually take a step back and look at the fundamentals, right? 00:14:57:14 - 00:15:21:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. There was a a townhouse development. It's about, 15 years old, just north of downtown that I was we got hired on because the people had again, had had mold, some stucco was crumbling on the front of the house, and we got brought in to replace it. So unfortunately, I kind of did two phases of, of contracts because I didn't know what kind of issues we were going to uncover. 00:15:21:15 - 00:15:39:21 Speaker 1 Uncover. Right. So I can I had one contract to to tear it off and demo it, figure out a path forward, and then another contractor to actually repair it. So we tore it off. I had someone from Tamlin out, this was like nine months ago, so I can't remember who it was, but we we spent out all the products we needed to use again. 00:15:39:21 - 00:16:07:06 Speaker 1 Him, the proposal to fix it. It was a almost a $200,000 fix on a townhouse that they paid $350,000 for 15 years ago, and all the stucco on the front, on the front elevation was toast. All the framing was so soft it just crumbled in your fingers like structural beams were crumbling in my fingers. And the people backed out of our second portion of the contract of fixing it. 00:16:07:06 - 00:16:14:13 Speaker 1 Because they didn't. They couldn't afford to fix it the right way. So they hired somebody else cheap, just just going to slap it back together like it was. 00:16:14:18 - 00:16:16:18 Speaker 2 So they could sell it or do it again. 00:16:16:20 - 00:16:18:02 Speaker 1 I guess. So it's tough. 00:16:18:02 - 00:16:45:17 Speaker 3 Right? Because, you were speaking about is it really that expensive on the the front end. Right. You pay one way or another, right? Yeah. You either pay on the front or you pay when it comes to these repairs where, moisture management, when by the time you're able to identify it visually, it's too late. Right. So it's not one of those things that if we could see through walls and we could see what moisture is happening, we would be able to, you know, make a lot of money, I think, in that technology, first of all, but you can't really identify these issues. 00:16:45:18 - 00:17:05:00 Speaker 3 So you visually see them either on the inside or outside. And by that time you have to do these costly fixes because you've got you've gotten into structural problems. Right. And so, it's a challenge. But again, education is really crucial to that because you can inform the architectural design community and the builder community. Hey, this is why it really pays. 00:17:05:02 - 00:17:10:11 Speaker 3 It'll keep you out of problems. But longevity, right? We want to have good names to the things that we do. 00:17:10:11 - 00:17:30:05 Speaker 1 So yeah, unfortunately for those people that build. Yeah, it was 15 years ago. So it was kind of out of warranty anyway. And the builder was was deceased. So they were, out of luck as far as, as getting in that fix, it was purely out of pocket as a very, very sad situation. But what's what's interesting was the people right next door to them had already had all that work done. 00:17:30:07 - 00:17:39:04 Speaker 1 And I walked down the whole row of townhouses and every single one of them, I saw the exact same problem. And, you know, I would I kind of want to get a knock on the door, but I didn't. 00:17:39:06 - 00:17:42:08 Speaker 2 Here's my card. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well. 00:17:42:10 - 00:18:11:04 Speaker 1 You know, I think that, this goes back to what I've said quite a few times on this show that I think a lot of builders just blindly trust the tradespeople right, to do it. Right. When, you know the framer, he may have good intentions, but he likely doesn't have the training. His job is in his mind is to get in and get out and get it done and go on to the next one, especially in these townhouse communities where they're building ten of them. 00:18:11:06 - 00:18:28:09 Speaker 1 They just want to go bang, bang, bang. So I don't think it's like ill will on the part of the framer, but it's just like a lack of education. And it's the contractor, the builder, the investor is just kind of blindly trusting that they're going to do it the right way. Right. The city inspector is not going to get up on the ladder to get a look at that stuff. 00:18:28:11 - 00:18:50:18 Speaker 1 And probably the the superintendent's not going to get up on the ladder either. So they're trusting right. So you know, that's when you've got to have you know again have your apps out have I like Rondo and Riley with exterior inspections. Somebody like them doing third party inspections, people who are actually going to get on the ladder and go up there and look at it and say, hey, this is done right, or this is not done right. 00:18:50:20 - 00:19:20:19 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, that's you need that every single time. I mean, there's, there's some good builders out there by but by all means, I'm not trying to say there's a I think there's a lot of good. Absolutely even 20%. There's a lot, a lot of good builders out there. And, and I try to follow the good ones and, and my hope is that other group is watching the 20% and they're slowly getting in firm at 20% to expand that and residential, I would give a lot of credit to the David Weekly's of this world, the amazing work and the training they go through. 00:19:20:21 - 00:19:38:23 Speaker 2 And they learn a lot from, building science Corp out of Boston, Massachusetts. Doctor Joseph. Steve brick. Yep. It's a good one to follow. Probably one of the best out there. I see a lot of marketing out there in other groups, but building Science Corp out of Massachusetts is Doctor Joseph Seabrook. The David Weekly with residential, but in multifamily, the Camden's. 00:19:39:01 - 00:19:56:04 Speaker 2 Those are the guys that are doing it right and continue to look for ways to improve. If you think that you're done, you're actually done. And it's a way I always tell everybody what when you're working the hardest, you've just begun. Keep going. 00:19:56:06 - 00:20:14:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. And, you know, you you you spoke on the rep side of it. And I think that that's a challenge that on the specification side that we continuously have. Right. Which is to education, a lot of times I'm speaking to principal architects that are kind of like you're saying, but on the other end, they're assuming that these, details are correct. 00:20:14:17 - 00:20:36:07 Speaker 3 Right. And then you're you're asking them, wait, you're in you're in Minnesota. Like, we know our climate, right? We know what we have to kind of look for. And a lot of them honestly just kind of take it for face value. They're like, no, this is a detail that we've used for X number of whatever application. And it's frustrating because again, you have to do it through education. 00:20:36:07 - 00:20:49:12 Speaker 3 You have to just kind of, the course that we do is very, fundamental. But even in those fundamentals, a lot of times you get the architects to say like, oh, wait, you're right. That doesn't that doesn't really make a lot of sense. And then that that starts the trend. Right? 00:20:49:14 - 00:21:12:03 Speaker 1 I think the same thing happens with architects, that happens with builders, where oftentimes the owner of the company, the architect of record or the builder or the owner of the company will go take the training class and he'll have this knowledge. But the guys who are actually doing the work, the drafts people, the junior architects, or in the case of the builders, the superintend ins may not be getting as much of that education. 00:21:12:05 - 00:21:21:12 Speaker 1 And so when the, the head guy's not checking his underlings at work before it goes out the door, that's where a lot of those mistakes happen. 00:21:21:14 - 00:21:22:10 Speaker 3 Oh, absolutely. 00:21:22:10 - 00:21:25:21 Speaker 1 Because the the owner knows better. Well, yeah. 00:21:25:23 - 00:21:43:15 Speaker 3 Generally knows better, right? I know that's a good point. And again it's it. Miguel's talked about that 20% a lot. And you know I don't want to get too bad on how bad things are. There are people that really try even on the specification side. But it just helps with the education because a lot of times it's not intentional. 00:21:43:15 - 00:21:58:22 Speaker 3 Nobody has ill intent to do these things. You just kind of see it for what it is. They don't really see these problems. Fast forward a couple of years. You start to see some of these things, right? But by then they're onto the next whatever. And it's kind of a continuous on to the next one. Until it gets really bad. 00:21:58:22 - 00:21:59:03 Speaker 3 Right. 00:21:59:03 - 00:22:10:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. What's the what's the legal the legal phrase like not knowing about the laws. No. What's the what's the term? Ignorance of the law is not a defense, right. 00:22:10:05 - 00:22:11:16 Speaker 3 There you go. Yeah. 00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:17 Speaker 1 You can't say I didn't know about this, you know? All right, so let's talk about, rain screens. That's one of the main, one of the main topics that I wanted to talk about. And I guess about a brought a sample, which we'll we'll hold up here in a second. Talk about. I'm still seeing a lot of builders just putting stucco, and other products just flat against a swab or flat against, like, a coated OSB system. 00:22:35:18 - 00:22:51:07 Speaker 1 There's a couple of those out there. Green one and a blue, and. But, I'm still seeing a lot of people just putting that stuff flat against that, that that sheathing just for people who may or may not know what a rain screen is. Let's just give some basic definitions. Miguel, why don't you tell us what a rain screen is. 00:22:51:09 - 00:23:14:17 Speaker 2 Or a screen is a is a gap that you're creating between your job and your final cladding. It's funny that the code specifically says that you have a you need a one inch gap, a rain screen between brick right brick a supports product. But in today's time we have a lot of composite material. We have stucco and they're sandwiched in between. 00:23:14:17 - 00:23:37:01 Speaker 2 The code says for stucco, two layers of of building wrap. Okay. Felt paper, synthetic material, two layers. But at the end of the day, when you're sandwich is still just one thick layer, and there's no gap in it, the product, the moisture comes in and needs to weep. So the strongest thing in nature, today's time is water, right? 00:23:37:01 - 00:23:55:21 Speaker 2 We will never be able to stop it. But like the Mississippi River, we just do redirect it into the Gulf where it needs to go. So we we built into the Gulf of Mexico from one end to the other. So same thing with our any building envelope that you had, you will not be able to stop water because it's going to capillary one way or the other. 00:23:55:23 - 00:24:20:19 Speaker 2 What you can do is redirect it. And that's where the rain screen create a gap. So the 2019 ASTM standard says that. Now for stucco you need three sixteens a minimum of a six millimeter thickness. This is why we came up with a rain screen a gap. It's a continuous all the way through. We were finding that one by two firm strips is not a bad thing, because you are creating a rain screen. 00:24:20:19 - 00:24:42:08 Speaker 2 But when those walls were coming off, the one by two trotted out, everything else is fine. So it was it was not ideal. It was still not bad. Now with the dryer, clamming, those those are probably okay. But in wet climates, like we live in here in Houston, Louisiana, and pretty much anywhere the coastline from Portland, Maine to Portland, Oregon, you're going to have issues with that. 00:24:42:10 - 00:25:00:06 Speaker 2 So we needed that particular gap. And when I say the beginning, I said when doing it right matters. Okay. So now that you create a gap, a continuous gap with some of the industry had already started looking at mesh material because they were using for mortar knitting at the bottom of the brick, because brick has to have that gap. 00:25:00:07 - 00:25:22:09 Speaker 2 It was a start. It was nothing wrong with that thought in mind. But even I, as a studying the science of this product, thought they would work because of your head. It works is that there's a gap in there, but then you have the effect of the solder dry, it's pushing it in and pushing it out before you know, that is a compressive material. 00:25:22:11 - 00:25:45:16 Speaker 2 A mesh is a 70% compressive. So some. So not everything in a rain screen that you think is going to work is going to work. So you have to study the science and the forensics of how everything is moving inside your building. In the winter time. It's cold inside, so the cladding is sucking itself in. In the summertime, it's pushing itself out because it's looking too dry. 00:25:45:18 - 00:26:02:17 Speaker 2 So you need something that's non compressive. That's why the one by two firm strips were working because we were not compressive. But we went to synthetic materials. We found out that mesh as good as the idea was it's going to become a problem especially for stucco because now you're going to have cracking because that stuff is moving. You want something that doesn't move. 00:26:02:19 - 00:26:24:21 Speaker 2 And that's why we designed our range screen product, because we wanted something that was continuous non compressive and creating a gap. Now always top 100% of the water. Probably not. You have nails, you have capillary. But when you create that mode going across the bulk water will drop. Little stuff will come out. But hopefully that's why it evaporates. 00:26:24:21 - 00:26:37:13 Speaker 2 But going back out, that's the initiation of a rain screen, a continuous rain screen, the one that we feel that is best practice is a continuous because it allows air to flow omnidirectional anyway. So yeah. 00:26:37:15 - 00:26:48:22 Speaker 1 And so, you brought a sample of the 6.3, which obviously if people are listening, they can't see it. But for people who are watching this on, on YouTube, you can you can see the see the sample he brought there. 00:26:49:00 - 00:27:14:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. So what we have is a 6.3mm. Just think of a bunch of marshmallows sandwiched between two pieces of cloth. There would be. And there designed to be about 1.25in apart continuously up and down. So vertically, horizontally, they're all they're all in there and it's non compressive. So whether it's stucco or a James Hardie product planking it all goes in. 00:27:14:17 - 00:27:43:23 Speaker 2 And it really what it does is redirecting the water. If you notice if anybody can see a YouTuber LinkedIn there's going to be a gap in there. That's what you're trying to do is create a gap. Remember how we say that there's an 80% chance there's going to be failure in any product project as manufacturers, when you're manufacturing product, if you're doing it, if you really want to do when we're doing it right, matters is manufactured for that 80% that you know, they're going to mess it up one way or the other, right? 00:27:43:23 - 00:28:06:11 Speaker 2 So what we did is we thought about this. We have multiple products like this. A rain screen is a assistance to that 80%. The chances are they're going to mess it up a little bit. So if we can give them a little bit of a cheater in there to stop them from doing some of that, that's a win for the the homeowner, that's the builder, and that's going to keep the bad wolf away. 00:28:06:16 - 00:28:20:13 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. We I call it in my courses hard to mess up. Anything that's hard to mess up is good in our world, right? Because, yeah, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of things that you're like, there's no way they're going to mess this up. Then you go take a deeper look like, oh, they messed it up, you know? 00:28:20:13 - 00:28:38:12 Speaker 3 So that's a product that's very easy to install. So it's hard to mess up, which is a really good thing in our industry. Kind of talking about that 80%. It's just one of those things that non compressive. When you have that conversation then you start to talk about pressure differentials. You know not having a continuous drainage plain. 00:28:38:14 - 00:29:01:04 Speaker 3 It makes so much sense that when you properly educate someone in that they're like oh of course like that makes 100%. And you're like, well, yeah, I mean, that's why this is ideal for absorptive cladding, right? And so it's one of those things that people have an moment when they're when on us as manufacturers, we take the time to explain to them, this is the benefit of having a product like this, right. 00:29:01:06 - 00:29:12:11 Speaker 3 There are ups and downs of every product, but you understand what works best in that scenario. We're in that situation. That's what really makes a difference, the educational component of it and then knowing when to use it, you know. 00:29:12:12 - 00:29:27:02 Speaker 1 So on your sample board there, you've got the rain screen, over OSB. Do you, I always put down like a base layer of like the Tamlin commercial wrap below that, below the rain screen. Is that on your single there too? 00:29:27:03 - 00:29:38:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, it is right here. This was opened up. It it was just to show the OSB. But under here you have a WB and then you have those marshmallows I was talking about they're not compressive. I'm going to open it up. 00:29:38:02 - 00:29:41:15 Speaker 1 So people non compressive marshmallows not compressive. The opposite of a marshmallow. 00:29:41:18 - 00:30:02:02 Speaker 2 So you so you see that they just look like marshmallows. Look just a little. They're dimples in there. So they're non compressive. And let me correct myself I think they're, they're 90% non compressive. But when they're lying next to each other they're 100% compressive. The reason you want a little bit of compression in there at 10%. The impact of the nail. 00:30:02:04 - 00:30:17:12 Speaker 2 You want it's going to have to give a little bit of that. You're going to crack composite material. You don't want that to happen. The stucco is not an issue because stucco is just going to go right on. It's mash right. Mash would go right in here. But for composite material you want a little bit of compression in there to get. 00:30:17:12 - 00:30:36:11 Speaker 2 It's a kind of a like a shock absorber for the panel and it, but so that you have a, you have an OSB, you have a B. Then then those marshmallows I'm going to compressive marshmallows and then you have the cloth. And if you're doing stucco then the metal would go in there. Then the, the final mud would go on top of that. 00:30:36:12 - 00:30:56:10 Speaker 3 Right. No, look, it's built with the stucco in mind with that extra sacrificial layer on top. So you'll know that a lot of things that Tamlin does is thinking ahead, not necessarily looking at where we are now, but looking at where we're going, even in code conversations. Right. The conversation has always been, behind absorptive cladding, specifically stucco. 00:30:56:14 - 00:31:18:03 Speaker 3 You have to have a sacrificial layer and moving more towards a rain screen drain option. Right. So when you look at our products, it may not be what's necessary now. And I always tell architects that will be the the status quo or the bare minimum moving forward. So kind of getting ahead of why we have the products that we have and how we think when designing these products. 00:31:18:05 - 00:31:36:10 Speaker 3 And again, that's a challenge, right? Because they will code says this. You're like, yeah, we'll take a look at different markets, take a look at something like Florida and tell me what what code requires and what code does it require. Right. Right. So thinking ahead is always, the burden on the manufacturer. You know, we have to move ahead and we have to set a new standard for the things that we do. 00:31:36:12 - 00:31:37:14 Speaker 3 And that's a good example of that. 00:31:37:19 - 00:31:58:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. We all have flat roofs as a manufacturer, water management brass. We have a flat bed flat for us the flat rep is the first layer over the OSB or whatever, whatever structural panel that you have in there. And then the next layer would be some form of race screen and then your final product. Right. I'm a firm believer that every single product should have a race. 00:31:58:12 - 00:32:19:06 Speaker 2 Green slash capillary break. Yeah. When the code put it in place ten. But they put it on on brick because that was the beginning. You know, they should have done it on all of them. And I think that that's where the the industry needs to go back in there. The stems need to go back into the reports and say we need range screens on every type of cladding there is out there. 00:32:19:08 - 00:32:40:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, we started doing that a couple years ago. Like every single cladding that we're doing gets a rain screen layer and even even those, those coated OSB panels, the, the, the green ones that are popular with the tape on them and then the blue ones that are also popular, gaining popularity by another manufacturer. So those are marketed. 00:32:40:19 - 00:32:51:22 Speaker 1 Hey, you're you're a built into it and you're just going to tape it and then put your cladding over that. But those in my opinion, and I'm sure yours too also need another layer on top of that. 00:32:51:22 - 00:33:13:07 Speaker 2 Absolutely, absolutely. I think that that, coated USBs, it's it's innovation. It's a first generation. And I and I see those improving. Now you're going to see at the IBM show, stop by some of these booths out there, the new technology, it's out there on an advanced product that's out there. You're going to be it's going to put some of this coated USBs to bed. 00:33:13:09 - 00:33:30:12 Speaker 2 They all need a rain screen. They all need a capillary break. They need that. It's the first generation. I see that even those companies are going to improve on what they have. They need to they're comfortable with it. They're also going to die. Look what happened to what's original phone company before Samsung came to play out of Canada? 00:33:30:14 - 00:33:31:04 Speaker 2 See, before. 00:33:31:04 - 00:33:31:14 Speaker 3 My time. 00:33:31:14 - 00:33:32:17 Speaker 2 You see, we already forgot about. 00:33:32:17 - 00:33:34:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, well. 00:33:34:08 - 00:33:50:19 Speaker 3 You know, and we look at those products, it in some applications, they work really well. But when we're looking at having a drainage plain behind them, it's never and it's again, one of those fundamental things putting two materials that are flat in direct contact will never work out for you. 00:33:50:20 - 00:33:56:22 Speaker 1 Even they're selling their own rain screen. Now that they're that they're saying our product needs this rain screen on top of it and certain applications. 00:33:56:22 - 00:33:57:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:33:57:12 - 00:34:11:15 Speaker 3 And it's, it's having a drain, a wall behind any kind of application just kind of ensures that you have, better drainage faster. Right? Yes. And the name of the game is moisture management, not moisture. Elimination. You just have to learn to move it around. 00:34:11:15 - 00:34:19:02 Speaker 1 Water always finds a way. Path of always. Water always finds a way. And so it's just a how are you going to manage it when it does find a way. 00:34:19:06 - 00:34:36:18 Speaker 2 Right. We just got to prepare ourselves and educate the people of all the things that can happen if you don't do it right. But that's a, that's a fear that most people have, you know, the pharmaceutical companies, you'll see these commercials on TV, about the new drug, blah, blah, blah, this new drug that's there. But the commercial is a mile long. 00:34:36:18 - 00:35:00:03 Speaker 2 Above all the things that could go wrong with you, right? They're really not there to sell you the drug. Now, the lawyer said you knew the drug was bad, but you still bought it. Okay. So everybody thinks, well, this pharmaceutical company selling me this drug, they have no intentions of selling you that drug there. The doctors are already being pitched about that they're there on TV to tell you all the things that are going to go wrong. 00:35:00:03 - 00:35:12:07 Speaker 2 So when you come to us, you already knew about us. Okay, so this is what we have to know as consumers. What's all the possibilities that can go wrong with my home? And what am I doing right to make that right? 00:35:12:11 - 00:35:32:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So and if it was one of you guys or if it was John Sanchez or somebody recently posted, I think, on LinkedIn, some pictures of one of those coded USBs that had a lot of failure on it. Yeah. What what, what in your experience causes those types of failures? Is it a lack of a brain screen? 00:35:32:06 - 00:35:35:06 Speaker 1 Is there something else going on there? I mean, I know it can vary, but yeah. 00:35:35:10 - 00:35:55:01 Speaker 3 I mean, it varies. It's always, you know, more than most. You rip it out, you start to see a lot of what goes wrong. Right? You can't really see it. I actually was driving by looking at another project and I saw that and I took a picture of it. Not to disparage anybody, but just use as an opportunity to educate, right, to really understand how bad things can go and how quickly that happens. 00:35:55:01 - 00:36:17:08 Speaker 3 A lot of times we think, well, five years, two years, some of this stuff starts to go really bad, especially with absorptive cleanings under a year. Right. That specific situation looked, and I didn't get up there. To kind of peak, but I would assume there was no drainage plan behind there. And what you saw was major deterioration of not only that stucco cladding, but even the structural components. 00:36:17:10 - 00:36:38:14 Speaker 3 And it, they got a lot of attention, mostly because you kind of see systems in themselves are not bad. But when you ask something to outperform what it can handle, it's just going to fail time and time again, right? Yeah. That specific design is made to handle a certain kind of application. So when you ask it to outperform, it's just not made for that. 00:36:38:14 - 00:36:55:16 Speaker 3 And so that was a good learning opportunity to kind of show look these products are really good really innovative. Like most things are going to continue to get better. But we have to know we're asking that system to do right. And so drainage is it's you'll learn one way or another with, with lack of drainage, you know. 00:36:55:18 - 00:37:24:09 Speaker 1 I'm definitely not saying, by any stretch, like, don't use those products. I mean, and I'm not, like, bashing them, like, so we're building a, we are building a house right now for another manufacturer that we'll talk about in the future. I can't say who it is yet. Anyway, we're building a house for another major building product manufacturer or as their their model house, their show house and the architect and and we, agreed that we're going to use a green coated OSB product on the house. 00:37:24:09 - 00:38:00:02 Speaker 1 We're going to tape the seams. But it was really more for from an air sealing perspective, correct? Yeah. Because when you when you have that, you tape it, you liquid flash it, you've got, you've got a really great assembly for, for maintaining the very little ach on the structure. So, but we came to Tamlin and we said on top of our air sealing, we want to create a great structure that's going to drain properly, that's going to perform, because that house has got a mix of stucco, stone and siding, all three on the elevation. 00:38:00:04 - 00:38:12:05 Speaker 1 And we want to make sure that we're using the right product. So, you know, we came to you guys and you all specked out some products to worry about, about to install pretty soon on that house. So again, I'm not I'm not dissing those products. They have their place. 00:38:12:10 - 00:38:13:01 Speaker 2 No. Absolutely. 00:38:13:01 - 00:38:15:10 Speaker 1 I think that they need to be used as part of a larger system. 00:38:15:10 - 00:38:34:20 Speaker 3 And I think system is always what we go back to. Right? So when you're speaking about having a lot of different things, it's always a good idea to have a continuous drainage barrier behind all those things. Yeah. Right. Systems, you know, everything that we do in our Q course is to architects. Is priorities, right? What's your first priority? 00:38:34:20 - 00:38:51:01 Speaker 3 Bulk water. Take care of your bulk water. That starts with a good orb having a drainage plan. And then after that we look at air and trend moisture. Right. Making sure it's airtight. So, when you look at things as a whole and then we can get into vapor diffusion, which tends to be what everybody wants to talk about, right? 00:38:51:01 - 00:39:09:09 Speaker 3 What's the perm level? What's this? But when we prioritize in that way, we start to create systems that just make sense. Right. So air detailing is very important. But if we're not taking care of our bulk water, then you're kind of you're kind of taking something good and kind of giving up. One of the most important parts of that. 00:39:09:11 - 00:39:28:22 Speaker 2 We're looking for is redundancy is what I call. So the the coated materials is it is again it's innovative product. But are we there's nothing better than redundancy you know. So in this morning I looked at the weather outside. You know, what shall I wear. Okay. Well how about I just make sure I do a little bit of extra. 00:39:28:22 - 00:39:36:05 Speaker 2 I put undershirt on and the shirt on top of it, just in case it was, you know, a little on the colder side than expected. So expect the unexpected. 00:39:36:05 - 00:39:38:07 Speaker 1 Throw your, your raincoat in the rain. 00:39:38:07 - 00:40:00:06 Speaker 2 Okay. So kind of expect the unexpected. So I'm a firm believer in redundancy. So the coated OSB, another layer to be on top of and preferably a a that has a rain screen or a capillary break built into it. Again, going back there should never be any building envelope without a capillary break or rain screen, a mode to protect it. 00:40:00:08 - 00:40:18:03 Speaker 2 You know, look at the castles. They were not put modes all around that they needed something to protect themselves, that they had humongous walls. Right. Why what why a mode? It was another layer of defense. That is what we need. A secondary layer of defense to protect this castle that we've invested a lot of money on. 00:40:18:05 - 00:40:52:15 Speaker 1 So one of the other things that I, I talked to toner a lot about on the show is using systems of products, which you touched on. So I think that this is something that I stress to people all the time, because the same job that that I mentioned a second ago where I came out and they had the tan one detail on the page, but didn't really apply the same job the builder had used a paint on waterproofing on top of that green coated OSB, and then used another brand of tape, and it was just like a bunch of layers that weren't compatible with each other. 00:40:52:17 - 00:41:20:11 Speaker 1 And I just pull up my phone, the warranty documents for that product. And I said, it says right here, do not coat this product with any other, with any other, paint on waterproofing product. I said, you just void voided your warranty. So it's important to stress how manufacturers like I'm sure that you guys do this and like like everyone does, you test your products with how they perform with other products and how they perform with your own products. 00:41:20:11 - 00:41:20:20 Speaker 2 Correct. 00:41:20:21 - 00:41:32:13 Speaker 1 And so when you're buying Tamlin rain screen, Tamlin, trainable wrapped him on commercial or whatever, use the Tamlin tape, use the Tamlin Flashings. It's designed to work together as a system, right? 00:41:32:18 - 00:41:53:11 Speaker 2 Absolutely. And we also where we try to do is we do add a little study further beyond that. So what if happens worst case scenario we're at something. So we want something that's also compatible. So we'll make available Joe Builder listen we he calls us in back to Ohio. Your product is not available. Well, these two other items are compatible. 00:41:53:11 - 00:42:08:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. So we're it's kind of a fail safe for him to make him feel good that we are looking out for him more. Anything else? Well, you know, we can't just say we'll use what? It's out there. We have to. It's a feel good for us. We need to know that. What other options do we have in case the worst case scenario happens? 00:42:08:07 - 00:42:10:02 Speaker 2 That we were out of inventory? Yeah. 00:42:10:04 - 00:42:30:10 Speaker 1 I went to the, the Trim Co facility for a trim Co. They manufacture a lot of different adhesives and sealants and things like that. I went to their facility in Cleveland, Ohio a few months back with toner, and I was blown away at how they did their testing. They had, you know, multiple wall sections set up in different environments, you know, water being sprayed on it. 00:42:30:12 - 00:42:49:14 Speaker 1 Then they had 20 different other brands of products that they were painting on and using different brands of tapes, all to show how their product worked with other people's products. Because, you know, you as a manufacturer don't want your product to fail because somebody used something that it's not the right product. Right? 00:42:49:14 - 00:43:08:12 Speaker 2 No, absolutely. So we were testing some of the our product that we had for the liquid apply flashing in. We try to one of the top brands out there and it did not perform well with our product. Not that there's nothing wrong with the top brand. It's a very good brand. But our substrate did not marry well with it. 00:43:08:13 - 00:43:21:16 Speaker 2 So that was a no, for us. That's why. So we put that on file. We know that when somebody calls, well, can I use this product? The answer is not on our product, but it does work on these other things. So yeah, you do your homework. 00:43:21:17 - 00:43:42:13 Speaker 3 You mentioned the system approach. And oftentimes on the manufacturer side it's a challenge right. Because everybody feels like you're trying to sell them a system. Right. But it'd be really cool to see you, participate one of our Q courses, because when you break it down in that kind of way, understanding that, yes, we would love for Tamlyn to be in everything. 00:43:42:13 - 00:43:59:21 Speaker 3 Right. But the benefit of the system is that these things are tested together. And so we know that they work well together. Now, when you take a buffet approach to different things and you say, I'm going to get brand here, brand B here, brand C, you can do that, but you have to do your homework. And oftentimes people do not do their homework. 00:44:00:02 - 00:44:25:10 Speaker 3 And so they just expect these things to work perfectly together. And it gets can get pretty bad pretty quick if it just doesn't work. Especially when you get into warranties and you get to stuff like that. Yeah. Even in the Q courses, I would love for all of them to, you know, spec Tamlyn. But I always tell people, whenever you're looking at any kind of detail, always refer to the manufacturer, refer to what they're asking you to do because, if that fails, you're not going to come talk to me. 00:44:25:11 - 00:44:40:23 Speaker 3 You're going to go talk to that manufacturer. They're going to say, what did we say to do and to not do? And, it's very clear. Right? So I always tell people the benefit of a system approach is that these things get tested together so we can be very confident that they work the way we're saying that they work right. 00:44:41:01 - 00:44:45:21 Speaker 1 Guys don't like to read the instructions. You know, we we just like to rip it off. Yeah. Sleep it on. 00:44:45:21 - 00:45:03:16 Speaker 2 And we we just, you know, we want to do it fast. And I guess I'll, I love the give analogy. So just imagine you're in the German autobahn okay. You're going in 180 miles an hour, but you have two choices. There's two people on there. Was that fast BMW motorcycle, and the other one's a Hummer that only goes at 20 miles an hour. 00:45:03:18 - 00:45:17:06 Speaker 2 It's a tank. Okay. At the other end, if you finish, it's $100,000. Well, you finished okay. But you have to. The fastest ones, it gets there. Who's going to win the Hummer is because the guy on the motorcycle is going to die every single time. Okay. 00:45:17:08 - 00:45:21:20 Speaker 3 That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I don't know where you were going, but it made sense halfway there. 00:45:21:22 - 00:45:43:06 Speaker 1 I like it. My wife is a chemical engineer, and, you know, she'll she'll tell you that, you know, putting two products on top of each other, apply to each other that. Yeah, the chemistry in each product may not play well together, you know, and that's that's what people to understand is that this this testing too, is taking into account the chemistry of the various adhesives and products. 00:45:43:06 - 00:45:53:02 Speaker 1 And y'all aren't just saying that so that they buy the Tamlyn tape, or they buy the Tamlin caulking or whatever it's know, do these products chemically bond to each other? 00:45:53:02 - 00:46:15:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. And it again, it's the format of a Q course is very it's challenging, but it's also very beneficial because you have to be impartial to what you're speaking about. Right? You have to speak about just what's true, what's not true, can't get into specific brands. And even when we're looking at a system approach in that way, it just makes so much sense to say if these things are designed to work together, let's use them together. 00:46:15:11 - 00:46:30:09 Speaker 3 Sure, you can get outside of that, but then you're taking a big risk that everybody that works in your group is doing the homework and their due diligence to make sure that, yes, this is compatible to this. Like you said, we don't like to read instructions. Right? When you start to look at some of those, data sheets, they're long. 00:46:30:10 - 00:46:46:17 Speaker 3 There's a lot of language in there. And so you kind of have to dig through them. And so oftentimes those people, whether it's Tamlin, whether it's whoever, it's always a good idea, if possible, to go for a full system approach and understand that that is going to be the best way to get the most value out of these potentially great products that are out there. 00:46:46:17 - 00:47:15:21 Speaker 2 So and I mean it follow follow the signs, but also follow those people that have been doing it for a long time that understand why they're called experts. And it's not because they succeeded, it's because they failed a lot. And that's how they succeeded. We we become experts in this industry because we screwed up so bad. It's just I going back to the mash material, spend a lot of quality time on designing the Mash material for the compressive mash. 00:47:15:23 - 00:47:21:11 Speaker 2 Did patents on it, spend thousands of dollars on something and that threw in the trash? 00:47:21:13 - 00:47:21:19 Speaker 1 Yep. 00:47:21:20 - 00:47:27:19 Speaker 2 Because after I put it on the wall, it didn't do what I thought it was going to do. But up here it did. 00:47:27:21 - 00:47:28:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:47:28:19 - 00:47:37:05 Speaker 2 And the unfortunate thing, there's a lot of product. It's on the wall that's on today's walls because they're just using this and they didn't test it on the field. 00:47:37:06 - 00:48:00:00 Speaker 3 Yeah we get a lot of calls about things when they go wrong. You know, like, hey, you know, we did this. Yes. You did a great Q course, but we decided to go with whatever we were going with and things start to get a little weird. And so we go in there and we see time and time again, the failures of compressive materials, especially when they're trying to be utilized as a rain screen or as some sort of drainage, enhanced drainage. 00:48:00:02 - 00:48:16:12 Speaker 3 Again, moisture is going to take the path of least resistance, right? So if you give it, a pressure differentials or difference, you have the ability for capillary action. And so unfortunately we always like to do it right the first time because it's saves you the most time saving the most money. And it, it really just makes sense. 00:48:16:12 - 00:48:19:15 Speaker 3 Moving forward, especially with the system approach in mind. Yeah. 00:48:19:17 - 00:48:38:11 Speaker 1 So aside from the rain screens, what are some other exterior products that you guys sell that kind of, you know, work along with your, your rain screen, your house wrap systems? I know that y'all do tapes we mentioned. Flashings. Tell us about your other your other products. 00:48:38:16 - 00:48:58:07 Speaker 2 So we we may factor synthetic, beetles. We also have asphalt bitumen beetles that we have, but for for the, window openings, we have those little plastic corners. It's another thing that we learned the hard way. Yeah. So we have flexible tape, in the 800 pound gorilla. We have the flexibility, whether it's synthetic butyl or latex. 00:48:58:09 - 00:49:18:21 Speaker 2 And one thing that we learn in corners, we learned the hard way after taking the walls down, that there is no flexible tape that actually works. It has a memory, wants to come back slowly. The the manufacturer will tell you, just nail it with the cap nail and stretch it and nail it in there. Well, you're stretching something that wants to come back. 00:49:18:21 - 00:49:38:05 Speaker 2 It eventually will come back. So we designed a corner plastic corner that goes on the windows. And then just the flat, flat tape will take care of it. And we found that that the same little bitty corner is less expensive than our more expensive flexible tape that everybody thinks works, but it doesn't. And this is what we're educating. 00:49:38:05 - 00:49:47:04 Speaker 2 The consumer said, listen, we we were wrong about your flexible tape. It doesn't do what we thought it did. But these corners here are the answer for it. 00:49:47:10 - 00:50:04:17 Speaker 3 Yeah. The education is crucial right. Because we see that, type of tape being used all the time. So let's live in a hypothetical where that tape does exactly what we ask it to do. Right? It doesn't, fish mouth for lack of better turn back up there even when you install, especially if you've actually installed a window. 00:50:04:19 - 00:50:17:02 Speaker 3 Those corners of the windows tend to catch that tape, and once it rips that tape, not only are you not aware that that tape is gone, it's already you're on to the next one, right? Yeah. Starting to put the window up there. You're not going to take it out and say, oh look I ripped a little bit of it. 00:50:17:02 - 00:50:17:10 Speaker 3 What's that. 00:50:17:10 - 00:50:18:16 Speaker 1 Plan. Just covering it. You're not going to. 00:50:18:20 - 00:50:40:02 Speaker 3 See it exactly. And so the benefit of having these pre manufactured corners is that you can do it right every single time. Right. It's a simple installation. No need to have your bow tie or your, you know, whatever method you want to have with tape. And it's really hard to mess up. And again, that's such an important part when it comes to doing it consistent every single time. 00:50:40:04 - 00:50:54:15 Speaker 3 Right. It's just one of those things where Miguel already said, you throw things out there, you have an idea in your mind with how they're going to work, but then you are also humble enough to say, hey, this is not this is not working. So let's look at a different option. 00:50:54:17 - 00:50:58:19 Speaker 1 That tape is really expensive to it. Yeah. The corners have to be less expensive than tape or. 00:50:58:23 - 00:51:16:22 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, they're less expensive. You know, we're making less money on it. So why should we sell any we need to be selling this flexible tape because we have more profit for us. But again, we we chose to do it right. And we're just going to do it right. Cap nails or cap screws versus staples. That's a huge one. 00:51:17:03 - 00:51:36:13 Speaker 2 We found that every single time you're using the staples and putting the staple gun on it, you're tearing your orb every single time. So we're creating our own problems by tearing in our RB. When will knock up that, that staple of the whole lot faster than the cap nail, but also the cap nail because of the little plastic slows down capillary through the nail. 00:51:36:19 - 00:51:47:13 Speaker 2 So there's a lot of positive things on a cap nail. And there's 100% negative things on a staple. Yeah. So that's a pitch that we always say do not use staples on the RB. 00:51:47:18 - 00:51:49:06 Speaker 1 They love using those because they can just go through. 00:51:49:06 - 00:51:51:06 Speaker 2 And it's just a quick yes. 00:51:51:08 - 00:52:12:20 Speaker 3 So anytime you have a whenever you're looking at your options for orb, if they don't have a cap nail specified, I always tell people just take a deeper look because that's a good starting point where something is not really thought through. Right? Rough openings. We preach, we preach, we preach. Yet you're like Miguel said, you're creating a bunch of rough openings without having any sort of, like remedy for it. 00:52:12:22 - 00:52:28:20 Speaker 3 At least you have something that you're thinking about. It. It's it closes that rough opening better. And so, you know, it's it's things that we're very adamant about because we are very passionate about building envelope because we want people to use our products, but we want it to put it up there and then just brag about what it did. 00:52:28:20 - 00:52:45:20 Speaker 3 Right. And so you have to build in a lot of redundancies. We are one of the few people, I don't know anybody else that uses a double sided tape that only allows you not only to shingle style, but seal up underneath. So it gives you built in redundancies for what you need. Right? It'd be a lot easier for us to just say, just tape the seams up. 00:52:45:22 - 00:53:07:08 Speaker 3 It's fine. But we've seen through time and time again having shingle style approach to insulation is good, then being able to detail it as a continuous air barrier underneath that double sided tape just makes so much more sense, especially when we're looking at building enclosure. You're getting into bulk water, but also air and moisture, right. And so it's built in redundancies that may not seem significant in our. 00:53:07:10 - 00:53:21:18 Speaker 3 And Miguel would probably be able to tell you a lot easier to not do, but kind of designing those into place and taking the time to educate that this is why we do what we do is huge. Everything that we do in building envelope has a has an I has a philosophy in mind why we do it. 00:53:21:18 - 00:53:24:12 Speaker 3 It's that none of it is the easiest way to do things. 00:53:24:14 - 00:53:31:18 Speaker 1 You guys also do some, some flashing panels, right? And some metal flashings and termination caps and things like that. 00:53:31:19 - 00:53:48:06 Speaker 2 So we'll customize anything for a consumer, whether it's a, parapet at the top, window flashing and any. We have 8500 different colors that we can customize to a project we currently you currently see is and Dunkin Donuts, Pizza Hut's, their Queens McDonald's. 00:53:48:07 - 00:53:49:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's everywhere. 00:53:49:02 - 00:53:49:17 Speaker 2 Everywhere. 00:53:49:17 - 00:53:52:17 Speaker 3 Trust me, once you start looking for it, you're like, oh, there it is. There it is. 00:53:52:17 - 00:54:13:18 Speaker 2 Because it's just it's about shingle fashion. It's about flashing properly, but it's also about looking strictly pleasing. We want to make sure it looks attractive, along with, the the panels, the fiber ceiling panel. We work with a close with the fiber cement industry like James Hardie. I think James Hardie net you, Laura, there's other companies, but James Hardie was the first one in the industry. 00:54:13:20 - 00:54:35:13 Speaker 2 We make a lot of reveals, esthetic reveals that make that attractive as stucco is, is one of the things that not too many people like to do because they're the fear of it. If they do it right. It's it's a great product. It's been it's been around for a hundred years. But if they don't want to go to that process, there's a reveal system that a lot of these fiber manufacturers have that look like stucco. 00:54:35:13 - 00:54:56:00 Speaker 2 So with that reveals it just definitely looks very attractive and modern. Yeah. So the generation that's coming in right now is the millennials and the Zs. Those are the buyers right now okay. They don't like the planking because they don't want to live in grandma's house. Right. So they want that modern look, the attractive modern look. So are you installing a piece of planking on a house or a panel on the house? 00:54:56:02 - 00:55:06:01 Speaker 2 The minute you finish with the planking already looks like grandma's house, but the panel 50 years from now will still look modern. So that's the that's what we have been emphasizing is a lot of the modern classic looks. 00:55:06:01 - 00:55:24:05 Speaker 3 Yeah. And then you look through our full product, different catalogs, different lines. One thing that you'll come across pretty quick is that they all have moisture management in mind. Even our reveal system takes into account managing a moisture. All of our horizontal reveals have a slight angled edge to kind of understand that moisture is going to get behind, there. 00:55:24:10 - 00:55:41:01 Speaker 3 And so everything we do is kind of centered around understanding the right way to do it, as opposed to just a way to do it. And again, it's a it comes down to us on the educational side because you really have to advocate. This is why you can't use a vertical reveal horizontally, right? It doesn't make sense. 00:55:41:01 - 00:55:57:17 Speaker 3 The person who doesn't really look at it every day, but that education and understanding that everything that we do has moisture management in mind, you can get something that looks really slick, but then you can also get the security that it's going to perform well. And ultimately, that's what, that people really like pretty things until they, they mess up, right? 00:55:57:17 - 00:56:02:23 Speaker 3 Until you have to tear it down. And then you have to call Curtis, and he has to tell you the. 00:56:03:01 - 00:56:24:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. So kind of like we talked about at the beginning, you know, having having the resource of you guys to help you choose the right products is, is huge for me. When we, when we get a new project, if it's whether it's a modern house, we have some of those details you're talking about or a traditional house with a lap siding or whatever I like to call. 00:56:24:11 - 00:56:40:02 Speaker 1 Well, I keep wanting to say, John, the John's has moved up in the world. John on Sanchez was my rep. Yeah, my rep for a long time, but he's he's moved on to bigger and better things in the company now. But anyway, so I'll call I'll call my talent rep and say, okay, here's our plans for this project. 00:56:40:04 - 00:56:47:19 Speaker 1 What products do we need to use to make this successful? And you guys are very helpful and giving me a list of products. And this is what you need. 00:56:47:21 - 00:57:06:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. And we try to be as sincere as possible about what you're looking for. A big part of the specifications roll is really taking a look at what the client wants and then making it happen. Right. And so what we always want to do is establish those relationships. I get no benefit if I ask you to use something that's not going to necessarily serve you in that purpose. 00:57:06:07 - 00:57:17:14 Speaker 3 Right. And so a big part of Tomlin's culture is being very genuine, very sincere about what the customers wanting. Give them exactly what they want and show them what they're going to need and why they need it. 00:57:17:15 - 00:57:30:08 Speaker 1 Or tell. Yeah, tell them. Tell them what they need. If they if they want something that doesn't really jive with what is going to be a good product, then be honest with them and tell them I know what you want you think you want. Like, here's why this is a better way to do it. 00:57:30:08 - 00:57:44:19 Speaker 3 Yeah, and education is great for that, right? You start to kind of talk to them. You break it down, you, zoom out, and then they start to see the picture. That makes sense. No longer does it turn into, why are you trying to push a drain, a more rain screen on me? It becomes, oh, I understand if I'm using stucco. 00:57:44:21 - 00:57:58:07 Speaker 3 I have to understand that that's an absorbent of cladding that's going to get moisture. And if you don't have a consistent drainage plain, you're going to get yourself into some issues. You want to see some issues we can drive around Houston. I'll show you a couple a couple sites that, kind of fall victim to that. 00:57:58:07 - 00:58:02:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. You can drive for 15 minutes in any direction in Houston and find some good examples. 00:58:02:07 - 00:58:02:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:58:03:00 - 00:58:18:16 Speaker 1 So all right. So that's going to kind of wrap up our conversation for the day. I just wanted to say again, for people who are listening, if you're a builder and you need some good advice on on putting together a good exterior assembly, or you just want to learn more about what Tamlyn does, please reach out to Milton. 00:58:18:18 - 00:58:40:16 Speaker 1 Miguel, be sure and follow Miguel on LinkedIn and check out some of his awesome content that he's putting out. But, you know, just go to their website. Danielle is going to link that in the show notes and on all our places that we're pushing this, so you can find Tamlyn there easy to find M oh, I own and, anyway, you guys have such a wealth of knowledge on these topics, and I always enjoy talking to you about it. 00:58:40:21 - 00:59:00:03 Speaker 2 Well, thank you, Curtis. We, we're excited to be here. One of the things we always want to share with the industry is that just do your homework. Just do your homework. And you're not going to be disappointed when you do that. And don't expect that everything that's coming out is going to be working for you. 00:59:00:05 - 00:59:18:18 Speaker 2 Don't. That's the biggest naive thing that we all have for human beings. We just want we want somebody else to do it for you. And they said it was going to work. Don't do that. Just do your homework. There's experts out there, the tamilians, but there's a lot of people in the industry that have, building science background, construction buildings and backgrounds. 00:59:18:20 - 00:59:29:17 Speaker 2 Don't just rely on me, the manufacturer. Get your digital references from somebody else out there in the industry. How does this product perform? Why do I need this? Don't just take somebody's word for it. 00:59:29:19 - 00:59:31:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. 00:59:31:01 - 00:59:56:08 Speaker 3 You know, it's, we love to be a resource. You know, those conversations are always, a lot more pleasant. I'd rather be called beforehand than afterwards. Right. Because then it becomes a much tricky, managing moisture, building enclosure, building envelope. There is no easy fix. You know, you your entire world is fixing things correctly. And sometimes people get hit with the harsh reality of what it takes, time wise. 00:59:56:08 - 01:00:16:20 Speaker 3 Also, when it comes to resources to fix something correctly, especially when things go wrong with moisture management, Miguel said. It's $11 billion a year. That's, by far the leading thing. So we, you know, we'd love to be used as resources. And we know a lot of people in industry that are also good resources. And the idea is to be collaborative, right, to understand that, you win, we win. 01:00:16:20 - 01:00:22:17 Speaker 3 And so that's really what we want. We want to be used as a resource, especially when it comes to the education side of things. 01:00:22:19 - 01:00:38:08 Speaker 2 We promise that if we don't have the answer, we're going to get it for you. Like so. We've we've got such a wealth of information that was gathered by friends in the industry that we have that want to do it right, just like we are. So, I said that 20% by 20% is a large group in the art industry. 01:00:38:10 - 01:00:54:23 Speaker 2 I could go back to the. Tony is a great example. He has a wealth of knowledge yourself out there, but a lot of people, even the 800 pound gorilla is there's some good people in all these different areas. And like I mentioned, Doctor Joseph, Steve Work of Building Science Corporation, he's a guru in this industry that we a lot of us lean on to. 01:00:55:01 - 01:01:05:22 Speaker 2 Is there some things I don't agree with him who does? And I mean, we're humans we are not going to agree with every year. But I agree with 80% of what he says. And that to me is a lot. And baseball, it'd be worth billions. 01:01:06:00 - 01:01:32:02 Speaker 1 You know, we, we we started this, podcast originally to, to kind of help homeowners make good decisions. So I started this just focused toward homeowners had a lot of architects and builders and that sort of thing on. But, part of it was I realized that I had more builders listening than homeowners. So we're still doing a lot of homeowner focused stuff, but I, I personally really have a passion for educating builders to prevent these problems. 01:01:32:02 - 01:02:00:02 Speaker 1 So yes, I still want to educate the homeowner so they make better decisions. But I really have a passion for educating the builder so that they're building a better product. So that I'm not getting called in to, to to be on the other side of the table for them, because I hate when I go to a job site and there's a builder who I know didn't have bad intentions, and he's getting hammered by the attorney and I'm getting paid to give advice that's going to put him in a big hole. 01:02:00:02 - 01:02:07:06 Speaker 1 You know I hate that. So I want to help educate those guys, those younger guys especially, so that they're not making these mistakes. 01:02:07:06 - 01:02:28:14 Speaker 2 Right? I mean, sometimes you just got to listen to your gut feeling and your the comment let common sense kick in when the lawyer says, explain to me why you use cardboard as a structural panel. But I said cardboard and I said structural panel in the same sentence. It just doesn't line up. So if you're that means that you did not use common sense. 01:02:28:14 - 01:02:38:11 Speaker 2 You, you know, on that it's I mean, I see a lot of that when you know bashing to the cardboard they they're great boxes, okay. They don't belong in construction. 01:02:38:11 - 01:02:43:06 Speaker 1 I was going to say the only time cardboard is a structural panel is when it's in your fort that you built when you were a kid. Yes. 01:02:43:06 - 01:03:02:21 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly. Yeah. So there's a lot of cardboard structural issues and I'm just saying not the actual product. Every single section of the wall, there's going to be some bad. But I tell you, when the bad wolf comes knocking, he's never going to come knocking because you have a little rusty faucet. He doesn't care about that. The building envelope that covers this whole package. 01:03:02:21 - 01:03:04:19 Speaker 2 Yeah he wants and he's going to come in. 01:03:04:22 - 01:03:11:11 Speaker 1 And that's why we have so many shows that we've done that are kind of on the whole building envelope topic. It's just it's it's the big one. 01:03:11:13 - 01:03:12:17 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. 01:03:12:23 - 01:03:27:20 Speaker 1 Anyway, thank you guys again for being with me today. It's been it's been great chatting with you. And like I said, if you guys want to check out Tamlin, we're going to link all their information in the show notes for all these guys on social media. They put out lots of good stuff. And thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Your Project Shipper podcast. 01:03:27:22 - 01:03:34:10 Speaker 1 We'll see you next time. Bye bye. 01:03:34:12 - 01:03:58:16 Speaker 1 If you found this helpful, enjoy listening. Please support us by liking and subscribing here on your podcast platform. And also join us on our YouTube channel. We want to continue to bring you high quality content and expert guests, and your support truly helps us to continue this journey. If you have any questions for me or my guests or any feedback for us, you can email us at podcast at your project shepherd.com. 01:03:58:18 - 01:03:59:11 Speaker 1 Thanks again.