00:00:06:17 - 00:00:27:07 Speaker 1 Welcome, and thank you for joining us on your project Shepherd Construction Podcast. My name is Curtis Lawson with Shepherd Construction Advisors and along with my industry expert friends, I am here to guide you through these four key components of a successful project, which are demonstrated by the simple drawing of a house. The Foundation is proper planning. The left wall is your team. 00:00:27:12 - 00:00:50:16 Speaker 1 The right wall is communication and the roof is proper execution. Have all four of these components in place and your project will succeed. Whether you're building or remodeling a custom home, or if you're an architect or designer looking for inspiration, or maybe you're just interested in building science and high performance construction, you're in the right place. Please help us further our mission here by tapping that follow or subscribe button. 00:00:50:18 - 00:01:02:05 Speaker 1 Push that notification bell so that you know when our new episodes drop every week. And now let's get to today's interview. 00:01:02:07 - 00:01:27:19 Speaker 1 Hey, everybody. Welcome back to a new episode of the Your Project Shepherd podcast. I, as always, I'm your host, Curtis Lawson. And today we are going to talk about, setting expectations between clients and architects, design personnel, to start a project to set things up for success. And for that topic today I am joined by Eric Use and Heather Rhule, and they are with HR design department. 00:01:27:19 - 00:01:32:01 Speaker 1 They are local architects here in Houston. So Eric and Heather, welcome to the show. 00:01:32:03 - 00:01:33:01 Speaker 2 Thanks for having me. Yeah. 00:01:33:01 - 00:01:34:03 Speaker 3 Thank you so much. 00:01:34:05 - 00:01:56:18 Speaker 1 So, we've we met each other a while back, and, we haven't done any projects together yet, although I looked at some stuff with you, and hopefully we can get something going really soon. But, I've seen your work out there and, you know, have, heard great things about you. And you guys have been kind enough to send some stuff my way to, to get some projects, so I appreciate that. 00:01:56:18 - 00:02:06:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Why don't you guys tell us a little bit about, you know, your background, kind of how you guys met and then what types of projects and things like that you guys do. 00:02:06:19 - 00:02:18:19 Speaker 2 We, we we laugh a lot because we feel like we both, had a really similar trajectory in our careers. We both came from tiny towns, Eric from Nebraska. 00:02:18:21 - 00:02:20:22 Speaker 3 Because it's just a lot more beautiful than. 00:02:21:00 - 00:02:48:12 Speaker 2 I'm from North Carolina, the mountains there. So, both of us attended big state schools. So, I went to North Carolina State University. Eric went to university in Nebraska, and then both of us decided to come to rice for graduate school. And that's how we ended up meeting each other. He was actually a couple years ahead of me, and while we were in school there, both of us worked for big, big firms downtown Houston. 00:02:48:12 - 00:03:06:11 Speaker 2 And I think both of us just looked back at our small town lives and wondered what we were doing in big towers. And so both of us actually switched and started working for, like small boutique, residential firms. And I think it just really resonated with us. 00:03:06:13 - 00:03:07:12 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 00:03:07:14 - 00:03:35:01 Speaker 2 Right after, I graduated, I started a firm with Jesse Hager, Content Architecture. And about a year into that, Eric joined us. And, so we had before we started our design department, we'd worked together for about seven years. So we really kind of understand each other's process. And, our, the way we think about design and, how we want to deliver things to our clients. 00:03:35:03 - 00:03:53:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, if you know that you want to have, a partner as an architect, I think that's one of the biggest challenges is finding someone that you can fully trust. And I think that there's an element of trust that we both have for each other. And we have very different skill sets, and we each trust each other to take those skill sets and run with them. 00:03:53:16 - 00:04:04:04 Speaker 1 That's funny. We'll talk some more after, after the podcast, but, my wife went in NC state, and she's also from a small town in the mountains in North Carolina. Brevard. 00:04:04:05 - 00:04:08:14 Speaker 2 Oh, I'm from Callaway, so County, one county over exactly. 00:04:08:16 - 00:04:18:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. Small world. Yeah. So we we also moved from small town North Carolina to, to Houston and I went through that same culture shock. Right. 00:04:18:02 - 00:04:20:20 Speaker 2 The huge transition in. 00:04:20:22 - 00:04:27:11 Speaker 1 So what kind of projects do you guys mostly do. I know there's always a variety for people, but what do you focus on? What do you like to do? 00:04:27:11 - 00:04:47:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, we've always said that it's a we're open to all types of projects, and it's just about finding the right fit with somebody that wants to do something interesting and collaborative. But we found ourselves primarily doing single family residential, and we loved the detail of that. We love how personal it is and the relationships that form out of that. 00:04:47:06 - 00:05:02:20 Speaker 3 But we've done everything from that to boutique commercial to 300 unit multifamily project. I mean, there's there's a lot of, with the help of a, architect record, but there's a broad range of what we do and what we're willing to take on. 00:05:03:02 - 00:05:24:15 Speaker 1 I think the the personal nature of residential real estate construction is what makes it, rewarding and stressful at the same time. Right? Because it's rewarding because you get you're doing something for someone's family and you get to see that result and see them enjoy it. But at the same time, it's very stressful because because it is so personal, people get emotional about things. 00:05:24:20 - 00:05:37:00 Speaker 1 People take things a lot more seriously than they do. If it's a commercial project where it's more just about hey, get it done budget time frame, it's more about the dollars and the numbers with a commercial project. 00:05:37:02 - 00:05:37:14 Speaker 3 For sure. 00:05:37:14 - 00:06:00:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, well, in residential it's a huge personal investment too, which I think adds a lot of stress to it. But it's also something that's going to potentially affect you and your family's daily life. And so that's a stressful process. You know, you're going to spend so much money on something that you're going to live with every day. 00:06:00:15 - 00:06:21:00 Speaker 1 So today I wanted to talk about, you know, what makes a successful project or how to set a project up for success. And so I kind of wanted to start by just set it to asking, you know, what does a successful project look like to you guys? Because that that means different things to different builders and architects. 00:06:21:00 - 00:06:26:08 Speaker 1 Like if the end of the day, how do you look back and say that was a success? Yeah. 00:06:26:10 - 00:06:58:01 Speaker 3 Well, part of this looks different depending on if it's single family residential versus commercial. But I think in general, just owner enthusiasm, and especially when it's single family residential, somebody coming to you that's excited about your work and excited about, the process that there's a mutual respect both us for them and them for us, in terms of knowing what they're getting into and also just, appreciating what we're bringing to the table. 00:06:58:05 - 00:07:18:02 Speaker 2 I think I think for us, we, we kind of go into the project thinking, okay, we really want this to be as enjoyable as possible for this client because that is going to make the whole process better for everyone along the way, every person that's part of the team. And so if we can facilitate that, it's going to create a successful project. 00:07:18:02 - 00:07:53:22 Speaker 2 And like Eric said, that takes trust, from the client in the process and trust in us and trust of everyone who's on that team. But I think for both of us, it's a successful project when at the end of the day, we can look back at it and we have nothing but good memories, like there are always bumps along the way, but if you can look back at it and think, wow, I'm so glad that the client has, you know, that they're able to live in this home and, find joy in it every time that they're there and not look back and have bad memories of the process. 00:07:54:00 - 00:07:57:04 Speaker 2 Then we've facilitated a good project. 00:07:57:06 - 00:08:35:01 Speaker 3 And we although, you know, we can appreciate projects that just for whatever reason, don't make it to the build phase. But for us, it's really important that our projects get built and that they become a reality. And there's 1001 ways for an architecture project to die. But when we do get to that phase, we try really hard to and we'll get I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but to try and set realistic expectations, to make sure that can happen in regards to budget and timelines, and try to think through all the variables that normally become the, hindrances to that happening. 00:08:35:03 - 00:08:50:23 Speaker 1 Why do some projects end up not getting built? Because that's I mean, that's frustrating for me too, because it happens a lot, you know, and I'm sure it happens probably more for you than it is for me even. But, you know, where you go through and spend all this time planning, designing something and then it just kind of peters out never happens. 00:08:50:23 - 00:08:59:21 Speaker 1 Or, I mean, I even look at projects, price them. I feel like we're about to start. And then all of a sudden, you know what? We changed our minds. So, like, why does that happen? 00:08:59:23 - 00:09:04:23 Speaker 3 I wish there was a clear answer, but it's. I feel like it's different for every single project. We've. 00:09:05:00 - 00:09:34:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's so many reasons. We've had, clients where they go through the process and suddenly there's another baby on the way, and that's not the house. But we had designs for them, and it was completely unexpected, like a big life change or relationship change. Yeah. Or we've had projects where we're working on the project, and someone came along and offered them like three times more than what they paid for the lot, and it was just worth it for them to switch course. 00:09:34:16 - 00:09:54:23 Speaker 2 So I think, like Eric, the there's 1001 different ways that it can happen, but, I think a common thing that happens for a lot of architects is that the project gets designed and it goes over budget, and then the client gets really cold feet about it, or isn't sure if it's going to be the right project for them. 00:09:54:23 - 00:10:03:07 Speaker 2 And we try really, really hard to make sure that that is not one of the 1001 reasons that it happens. 00:10:03:09 - 00:10:25:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, I think we're very conscientious of that, maybe overly so even at the start. I feel like I am, but, making sure that it's very clear what frame of reference they have for how much a project costs and that they're working within a realistic framework and that we try to keep them within that the whole time. 00:10:25:01 - 00:10:37:10 Speaker 3 And budget and timeline are two things that we can control on our end, and a lot of the other things we don't have any control over, but the things that we have control over, we want to make sure that we're being good stewards of that. 00:10:37:12 - 00:11:00:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, when when somebody, you know, sells the lot or they have a new baby or something like that, those are usually, you know, not bad circumstances for the project to not get built under a but when it ends with, we can't afford this or it's over budget or whatever, then usually that's disappointing and frustrating. And that's not the kind of a happy client outcome that you want, right? 00:11:00:05 - 00:11:08:14 Speaker 2 Well, and like you said, it's not successful if it doesn't get built. And so we have to make sure that we're paying attention to that. In the end. 00:11:08:16 - 00:11:22:17 Speaker 3 I mean, they're choosing U2 and Bach, most of them with residential on a dream that you're co-creating. And so that that dream comes crashing down and it's it's on our shoulders, then that's the worst feeling to have. 00:11:22:19 - 00:11:47:02 Speaker 1 Something that we always talk about here. The one of the very first steps has got to be, you know, just setting a realistic budget for the project. And, you know, the problem is that people don't know really what things cost when they first come to you. So a good a good bit of that is education. And, I'll step out and say, now that and don't take this the wrong way, that a lot of times architects don't always know what things cost. 00:11:47:02 - 00:12:02:11 Speaker 1 And so you have to have good builders contractors, they're get a relationship to those people to bounce ideas off of. Right. And you know you can call and say, Curtis, these people are thinking about this. What do you think that cost Ryan. Yeah. 00:12:02:13 - 00:12:19:19 Speaker 2 Well, I think for us, one of the reasons that we really struggle with it, you know, even even as we're we're trying so hard to pay attention to it, is that when we build a project, it's not unusual for us to have big swings, depending on who's bidding it and the type of builder that might be bidding it. 00:12:19:19 - 00:12:35:13 Speaker 2 So, you know, do they have a lot of people working, in the background that's helping to support the project? Or is it like a one man show that might show up to the project for a few hours each day or something, and the level of subs that they have working on it. And so there's a huge swing. 00:12:35:19 - 00:12:57:14 Speaker 2 So we have to be managing, okay from the very front end. Be thinking, what kind of builder are they going to want for this project? Like what's their threshold for a builder and then work within our experience, which is all we have of how am I just normally that type of builder is going to come in for the project expectations that this client has. 00:12:57:16 - 00:13:23:21 Speaker 1 I think a lot of times that you guys are because you design something and then maybe it takes a year or two years for that work to actually happen. Or sometimes you design something and it might be a while and until it actually gets started. Right. And so I think sometimes you're working with older data because especially like right now over the last couple of years, like prices have gone up and down like crazy. 00:13:23:21 - 00:13:36:23 Speaker 1 And that's and when you're kind of working a few months or a year or so, even kind of behind that pricing curve, you might throw out some data that you think is good, but then it's, you know, that's last year's data, right? 00:13:36:23 - 00:13:37:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. For sure. 00:13:38:00 - 00:14:06:15 Speaker 3 Well, and even I think truthfully, a number of the builders that we've worked with, they're sometimes even surprised by when the hard bit comes in relative to what they were initially projecting. It was going to be in the the climate for residential, that the metrics that are used to price are just so different than commercial. And it's so based on what your subcontract sultans are and who's bidding the project and what their bandwidth is and what their availability. 00:14:06:15 - 00:14:16:13 Speaker 3 And those numbers can fluctuate in a way that doesn't always make sense in terms of just simple cost per square foot metrics that you would have in commercial. 00:14:16:15 - 00:14:36:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, I like to start with the cost per square foot, not for the whole project, but like for individual items. So if I'm, if I'm doing like a first pass, like if you just send me a set of plans and you're like, hey Curtis, what do you think arranges to build this? You know, I'm going to start with historical data, you know, hey, there's this much tile. 00:14:36:05 - 00:14:56:22 Speaker 1 It's about this, this, this $20 per square foot. It's this much framed area that's about this much per square foot for framing labor and kind of start there and create, create maybe a plus or -10% range. And just make sure that you know, your clients are okay with that range before we even go to the next step, and then tighten it up from there. 00:14:56:22 - 00:15:23:06 Speaker 1 I mean, as long as I'm active in these neighborhoods with the appropriate sub. For what? For for the work that's going to be done. I'm not using, a cheap sub at an expensive neighborhood. Right. That historical data should be close enough to get us into that ballpark. Right. And then from there, you know, you know, we like to engage with the architect and the homeowner just to make sure that budget staying on track all the way through. 00:15:23:08 - 00:15:41:13 Speaker 3 And that's why oftentimes we recommend to owners that they engage with the builder early, especially if the budget is tight. And there's a concern for that. We often advocate for getting them involved to help keep things in check and to make sure that we're creating a collaborative team that can make the budget work. 00:15:41:15 - 00:16:08:21 Speaker 1 And one of the things that you mentioned a minute ago was, a successful project, you know, means there's mutual trust and respect. And I think that the struggle with that is some, some clients. I hope this isn't too much of a generalization, but I think some people have this mentality that when they write you a check, when they're paying you for something that you're that you're kind of working for them and not with them. 00:16:08:21 - 00:16:42:23 Speaker 1 And so one thing that I look for in clients, because it's honestly the the interview process of interviewing an architect, interviewing a builder is kind of a two way thing is that's that's our chance to maybe weed out people that we don't want to work with. And so it's trying to get a sense of, is this person going to treat me with respect, or are they going to treat me like I'm just another line item on the budget to where they, you know, I don't know, it's this mentality of when you write somebody a check, you own them or you're you're buying them instead of you're, you're investing in their time and you're, you know, 00:16:43:00 - 00:16:53:01 Speaker 1 you're working with them. So I think that that having that, that mentality of not seeing somebody is just a number is an important way to approach it. 00:16:53:03 - 00:16:54:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:54:18 - 00:16:58:02 Speaker 2 For sure. It's got to be a collaborative process for sure. 00:16:58:04 - 00:17:19:04 Speaker 1 Okay. So when somebody comes to you and they want to get the ball rolling on, on designing a new house, remodeling a house, and they're trying to at that point choose, an architecture firm, a design firm to work with. What should they be looking for? Like what kind of questions should or should they be asking potential architects. 00:17:19:06 - 00:17:41:03 Speaker 2 I think, I think the, a good way to go about it is to first think of all the things they should be asking themselves of what they want to get out of the project. They should be thinking about how quickly they need the house. They need to think about, are they are they building this house because it's their forever home, or are they building it because they know they're going to sell it in the next five years? 00:17:41:03 - 00:18:05:10 Speaker 2 You know, that kind of, would define how custom the house is going to be as accustomed to their lifestyle or as that custom to a broader audience of people, potentially. What's the budget for the House? We've talked a lot about that already. What kind of style do they want the house to be? And, how much of a partner do they want their architect to be? 00:18:05:16 - 00:18:22:23 Speaker 2 I think those are all good things for them to be thinking about. And then once they kind of build those parameters, I think that those define the questions that you ask your architect, because you're going to go to the table and say, this is what I want out of this process, and then how are you going to work within it? 00:18:23:01 - 00:18:27:10 Speaker 2 So I think sometimes it's almost like turning the question back on yourself. 00:18:27:12 - 00:18:56:01 Speaker 1 Would you prefer that people come to you with, you know, kind of a set idea of what they want? I mean, we have people come to us sometimes with like four plans sketched out on a piece of paper and say, I want this, you know, do your thing. I mean, would you prefer this someone comes to you with, with those ideas already kind of sketched out or or outlined, or should they come to you with an open mind and just kind of trust your create your creative process? 00:18:56:03 - 00:19:16:20 Speaker 3 I think it just depends on the person. I feel like some people, they almost can't not do that. They're based on how they're wired. They they might just feel like they have to put something out there. Question is, is it malleable? And, is their motivation for doing it just to try and get what's in their head out and for us to have something to respond to. 00:19:16:22 - 00:19:40:16 Speaker 3 Which hopefully, you know, that's the case. And they're not saying, here's how it has to be. Because that would not make a good project for any of us. And so we have no issue with them coming with the sketch, and thinking a little bit about, how they want the space to lay out for as long as they think of that as something that's the start of a process and not the. 00:19:40:18 - 00:19:42:13 Speaker 3 Here, please take this and draft it up. 00:19:42:15 - 00:20:11:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, our, our job is to create solutions to the parameters that we're given. And the parameters have to be provided by the homeowner because it's the custom house for them and their needs. And so we it's common for us to get all levels, in those first meetings, we sometimes people come with a binder that as a whole series of houses or clippings of things that they like. 00:20:11:06 - 00:20:36:05 Speaker 2 Other people don't really have an idea. They just know they need a house and they want it to fit their lifestyle. And so part of our design process is about really getting to know them and understanding what those needs are from whatever point they handed off to us, to start the process. And so, one of the first things that we do, is we create a programing questionnaire for our clients. 00:20:36:05 - 00:21:05:16 Speaker 2 And this is probably one of the only parts of the design process where it's just written words. We we ask them to describe in words, through a series of questions that we provide them what they need out of this house. And it's questions that are things that, talk about how the house is going to function, but also how the spaces relate to each other and how it's going to interact with their normal daily life and, their living patterns. 00:21:05:18 - 00:21:15:08 Speaker 2 But we won't start a project until we've gathered all of that information, because it's impossible to create a solution without setting parameters. 00:21:15:10 - 00:21:33:18 Speaker 3 Yeah, because if we don't do that, then it's just a a design process that, we've conjured and kind of a byproduct of our own egos in a way, as opposed to it being something that's collaborative and an extension of the homeowners desires. 00:21:33:20 - 00:21:54:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's there's always this, this dynamic of the architect not listening to the homeowner and then the homeowner not listening to the architect. You know, it's like, in fact, one of the things that, I sent you guys some, some questions ahead of time to kind of think about. And one of the things that you mentioned was that you speak to, students at Rice University about this process. 00:21:54:02 - 00:21:58:20 Speaker 1 And so to talk some about, you know, that dynamic between homeowners and architects and that way. 00:21:58:22 - 00:22:21:07 Speaker 2 Well, I think honestly, it's a little bit when whenever we started our, our firm, it's something that we thought about, about what we really wanted out of this process. And, we kind of broke down how we've seen, architects and clients interact with each other over the years from working with other firms or watching, maybe how a firm is acting from afar. 00:22:21:07 - 00:22:41:04 Speaker 2 And, and there's like three types. There's, there's one type where the homeowner shows up at the architect office and they say, I need this house, but I need it permitted. And I know that I just need it drawn up, and I need the builder to be able to build it. And it's all here. I know exactly what I want, and they hand us the drawings. 00:22:41:06 - 00:23:11:03 Speaker 2 That is a process that works. And there are architects that we'll do that for clients, and it's basically a draftsman service. But when a client does that, they're not taking advantage of the expertise and the design sensibilities of the architect of what the architect could bring to the table to make the project better. And then there's the second version of that, which is flip it on its head, and the client comes in and they say that they need a house, and the architect says, I got it. 00:23:11:03 - 00:23:42:23 Speaker 2 I know exactly what you need. And they design something that it could be amazing, architecturally beautiful, but does not function at all for the client's needs, because the client wasn't part of that process and it wasn't there wasn't a team, kind of collaboration going on there. But the third one, which of course, is the one that we strive to the client is going to come in to the architect, the office, in whatever capacity they want to layout everything that, they want in a house. 00:23:42:23 - 00:24:02:18 Speaker 2 And the architect is going to take that and use it as data that helps them develop a solution that's specific to that client's needs. And and the result is something that I think neither the architect or the client could have ever imagined when they first sat down at the table together. And those are the best projects. 00:24:02:20 - 00:24:22:07 Speaker 3 For sure, that the ones that we find the most satisfying when you don't feel like either of you knew exactly where you had that trajectory in mind. But when you walk in and it's built and everybody's there together, it feels like something that was a collaboration and a little bit of a surprise. 00:24:22:09 - 00:24:43:18 Speaker 1 As you were talking, I was imagining like a scenario or a correlation of like going to a restaurant, going into the kitchen and telling the chef exactly how to cook the food. Right? Yeah. You walk in, I want this meal and I want these ingredients, and this is how you're going to cook it, right? Yeah. And then the the other, scenario is you walk in and the chef just makes you whatever the chef feels like making. 00:24:43:18 - 00:24:45:18 Speaker 1 And here you go. This is what you're going to eat. 00:24:45:20 - 00:24:47:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a great analogy for it. 00:24:48:05 - 00:25:04:14 Speaker 1 But really it's like the scenario of a of a personal chef, right? Where. Yeah. You're, you're telling the, the chef what you like and what your food allergies are and, and what you need. And then the chef's going to take that information and make that meal for you. Right. 00:25:04:14 - 00:25:05:02 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:25:05:02 - 00:25:30:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. I will say like one caveat is that we do think it's important that there's, a recognition of the style that the owner is wanting and that we're able to speak the same language in that regard. So if someone comes to us and wants something that is of a certain era in a traditional home where they're trying to create some sort of period element, it's not a project. 00:25:30:15 - 00:25:51:18 Speaker 3 We typically say that we're we get excited about, and it's not one that we're used to detailing or we just have a lot of familiarity for. And so not only is it something that we don't work on a lot, but it's not something that brings us joy. And so anytime that you have a project where from the get go, people aren't excited about it on all sides, it's just not going to be a successful project. 00:25:51:20 - 00:25:52:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:25:52:17 - 00:26:22:21 Speaker 1 And the same goes for for builders too. I mean, there there are certain builders who are really good at, you know, very, very traditional, you know, craftsman or Victorian or, you know, what have you. There are some builders who are really good at doing very modern stuff. And it's not that they're not capable of doing one or the other, it's maybe they don't enjoy it, or maybe they don't have the trade base even to accomplish doing that type of house, because they require different, levels of subcontractors or different skill sets that they may not have. 00:26:22:21 - 00:26:49:11 Speaker 1 Right? So it's, that that early interview process, for me, it's more important to get into, you know, you know, the style and making sure that you're on the same page as far as, expectations of, of what kind of design you want and that and personality. Right. And less so even about budget in the very early conversations, it's way more of a personality. 00:26:49:12 - 00:26:51:05 Speaker 1 They're more of a stylistic fit. 00:26:51:09 - 00:26:52:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think. 00:26:52:23 - 00:26:53:08 Speaker 2 The first. 00:26:53:08 - 00:27:08:04 Speaker 3 Day for sure. And well, one of our first questions is always, have you been to our website? Have a chance to look at our work? Does that resonate with you? Reference is made not just based on design. It might be that they had a friend that said, hey, these people are really fun to work with for whatever reason, right? 00:27:08:04 - 00:27:30:18 Speaker 3 And so it's a call where they haven't had a chance to really look at our, our design yet. Then something we want to make sure that they're clear on and that we're from the get go. There's an understanding of the type of work that we do and so well when they come in, we'll oftentimes even have them pull up projects that they're excited about or projects that they've seen on our website that they like. 00:27:30:18 - 00:27:34:05 Speaker 3 And to make sure that there's an understanding there. 00:27:34:06 - 00:27:46:14 Speaker 1 I think I'm going to create a a tender for architects and homeowners to where it's like pictures of houses pop up, you know, swipe left, swipe right, you know, decide if you like the that that architect asks. 00:27:46:14 - 00:27:48:15 Speaker 2 That actually would be a great idea. 00:27:48:18 - 00:27:49:17 Speaker 3 You might have something. 00:27:49:17 - 00:27:54:18 Speaker 2 That make connections. Yeah. 00:27:54:20 - 00:28:13:11 Speaker 1 Add that to the list and you know we'll put that on your on your task list for, for next project. All right. So when people again back to when people are interviewing architects I use the term red flags may not be the right term, but what are some what are some other questions they should be asking or some red flags they should be looking for. 00:28:13:17 - 00:28:14:21 Speaker 1 You know, things to avoid. 00:28:15:01 - 00:28:19:05 Speaker 2 Avoid from the architect or whatever it in general. 00:28:19:07 - 00:28:21:12 Speaker 1 I guess. Again, red flag might be the wrong term here. 00:28:21:12 - 00:28:42:00 Speaker 3 Well, I, I mean, I think it you can kind of fairly quickly oftentimes tell if someone's really listening to you or not, just based on their, their body language and whether or not they hear you out and then respond to your question or whether or not they're just eager to get their next response out. But I think that's one of the very first things as the architect, whenever they're interviewing, actually listening to them. 00:28:42:02 - 00:29:10:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, the really good red flag I saw, someone said, once. It was like a good interview question. You asked the person, if they could ask their colleagues or people that they work with, like other builders, let's say, how those people would describe them. You can learn a lot from a firm who's someone is. And so, I think that's probably a good way to go about finding out who your architect is, you know? 00:29:11:00 - 00:29:11:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:29:12:00 - 00:29:29:12 Speaker 1 I think people should also be asking, you know, do you have time in your schedule to realistically take care of me in my project? Are you are you overloaded or are you backlogged? Is it going to take you six months to do this design, or two years or three weeks or whatever? 00:29:29:12 - 00:29:40:02 Speaker 3 You know? Exactly. And the question, there's no simple like how many projects do you have in your office currently? And you know, that may or may not elicit a truthful answer, but you know. 00:29:40:06 - 00:29:52:05 Speaker 1 Well, that can also depend on how many people are in the office. If it's just two people in the office, then obviously that's a smaller workload. If they've got 20 draftsmen and project managers for, you know, that could. 00:29:52:06 - 00:29:53:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:53:01 - 00:30:15:19 Speaker 1 They can handle it on a project. Does their current workload, you know, kind of fit with your schedule and is that timeline, you know, work work out for you? What again, talking about setting expectations for the client. What should people be expecting for a timeline? And I know that's varies widely by client, right. Because it depends on how fast they make decisions and things like that. 00:30:15:19 - 00:30:25:20 Speaker 1 But how much time should people expect for, for design work, both for, I guess, in new houses and then also for like a remodel? 00:30:25:22 - 00:30:48:06 Speaker 3 Yeah, probably the answer to this, if any architect has been to the process is being truthful. It has to be a variation. There has to be some variability in it because we typically I mean, it's anywhere from 6 to 9 months really to get drawings to permit phase. And then permitting is if it's ground up, you know, three months. 00:30:48:07 - 00:31:10:15 Speaker 3 And so you're looking at we usually say all in roughly two years is a good framework to be thinking about for design. And then construction. We talk a lot about how each owner client has different ways of working. Some people are very decisive. We have some clients right now that they can see something and within the meeting itself, decide on a direction that they want to go. 00:31:10:19 - 00:31:33:11 Speaker 3 Some people need weeks to mull that over. And then even after they've made the decision a month later, they might reconsider it. And so part of it is a byproduct of knowing yourself and being realistic about how decisive you can be about a lifestyle decision and if you're the kind of person that is very decisive, then you can be at the shorter end of that spectrum. 00:31:33:13 - 00:31:45:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then some people are very decisive and they make a decision and they keep second guessing themselves for the next six months. And, what if we move that all three feet or three and a three inches or whatever? Yeah. 00:31:45:22 - 00:32:07:15 Speaker 2 It does happen. We we really try to avoid that as much as we can. And one of the ways that we do it is, we actually build a lot of extra time in on our schematic design phase. And probably, I mean, sometimes probably we probably spend more time then than we should for what, the number of hours we should be spending on it. 00:32:07:17 - 00:32:29:21 Speaker 2 But it's been so helpful for us to do that for several reasons. So, one is that, you know, whenever we start the schematic design process, all we have at that point is that written document I was telling you about. Right. We've created the program document. But a lot of clients are unable to put everything that they want on paper. 00:32:29:21 - 00:32:56:03 Speaker 2 That might not be how they're just they can describe what they need and what they want. And so what we like to do is provide for them 2 or 3 options, usually in the schematic design phase that are, solutions to those program. The from the program document, we're creating the solution, within those parameters. So there's 2 or 3 different options that we're normally giving them. 00:32:56:03 - 00:33:24:12 Speaker 2 And then that first meeting when we present it, we learned. So much information from the client. Like they there are a lot of times clients are better at responding to something that's in front of them than they are about just, you know, pulling out of the air all of the things that they need in their house. And so when we sit down at that first meeting, they're looking at each option and saying, oh, I forgot to tell you, I hate it when there's a staircase right in front of the front door. 00:33:24:12 - 00:33:48:13 Speaker 2 So definitely not like that. And so we're writing things down and it's just building upon those parameters that we set from the get go. So it helps us a ton in the design process as it, as it moves forward. But, it's also invaluable to the client, I think, because I think it actually helps them from second guessing those decisions as we move forward. 00:33:48:15 - 00:34:01:22 Speaker 2 So 2 or 3 months down the road, they don't wake up in the middle of the night and go, why didn't we think of doing it like that? Because hopefully we did. We already looked at that and we decided that it wasn't the right appropriate fit for them. 00:34:02:03 - 00:34:29:05 Speaker 3 It goes back to those three strategies that Heather mentioned earlier. And just this idea, if you come with just one idea to the owner and say, here it is, here's the solution to your entire programing document, then it they feel like it's a take it or leave it scenario. And when you have 2 or 3, I mean, of course we always hope that, they're gonna look at one of those, here's 90, this is 90% there. 00:34:29:05 - 00:34:40:20 Speaker 3 But in reality it's more like I like aspects of this, I like aspects of this. And so usually what comes out of that is a learning session that then leads to an entirely like, option D, you know. 00:34:41:00 - 00:34:57:11 Speaker 2 Right. Exactly. Because that first meeting is really a it's a huge part of the design conversation, that's all. We're just facilitating the conversation. And I like Eric that hopefully one of them is both. But regardless, we're we're honing in on what they really want. 00:34:57:12 - 00:35:13:02 Speaker 1 When you also have to be able to figure out if they say that they don't like something, like how strong, how strongly do they really feel about that? Because I've had people say, I don't like that staircase in front with them. When you talk about other solutions, they're like, oh, you know what? Maybe I'm okay with that, you know? 00:35:13:04 - 00:35:24:01 Speaker 1 So yeah, it's like we also have to be kind of like psychologist too. And, and and kind of figure out, do they really mean they hate that or is just kind of like a mild dislike or. 00:35:24:02 - 00:35:50:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, right. I mean, I think a lot of times we ask our clients when they, respond to something to tell us why, and it's really the same. We are trying to do the same thing. So even if they say they don't like something, we can point and say, well, this is why we did it that way. Because if we put this here, then it means you're going to get it light in the morning and your bedroom is going to get bathed with morning light or your kitchen or something. 00:35:50:21 - 00:36:03:11 Speaker 2 Or if we rearrange it this way, this is going to happen. And that is just a way that we can start to speak our language to them while they're speaking their language back to us. And yeah, we're both learning from each other. 00:36:03:13 - 00:36:15:00 Speaker 1 And you can tie in the budget too, because they might they might not like something. But when they learn that the alternative is $50,000 more, they're like, oh, maybe I do like that way. 00:36:15:02 - 00:36:19:04 Speaker 2 They reject me sometimes. That's the why. Yeah. 00:36:19:06 - 00:36:39:05 Speaker 1 We keep kind of going back to budget because that's such a big part of all of this. I mean, we all wish that we could, you know, design and build in a vacuum where we just design and build something that's like, amazing. But the reality is that we, you know, at least for most clients, that that budget is really at the heart of it. 00:36:39:05 - 00:36:57:22 Speaker 1 So that I think that the fleshing out early on, what's included in that budget, too, is a big part of it, because there's a lot of things that people may or may not be thinking about with that budget. So, you know, in that initial number, are they are they including design fees, right? Or are they including the engineering and the surveying and the soil testing? 00:36:57:22 - 00:37:22:02 Speaker 1 And there are you know, all those pre construction costs they're going to incur, which can be a lot. You know, they could spend $100,000 before they restart the project. So are they including that in their number. And then are they including, you know, the landscaping and the, the driveway or if it's a remodel or are they including replacing the air conditioning and the roof and all this other stuff? 00:37:22:02 - 00:37:30:18 Speaker 1 So, you know, having that discussion about, you know, what's in that budget, I think is important is what is the budget? 00:37:30:20 - 00:37:52:21 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, another thing that we see in a lot of our projects, but we have to be careful about quantifying it, is the covered exterior area. Everybody likes to think of things in terms of condition. Square feet. But as soon as you start having these large, generous, covered outdoor spaces, suddenly you see the frame number and, and the owner is like, what's this number? 00:37:52:21 - 00:38:13:13 Speaker 3 You know, where did this come from? But I had a 3000 square foot house, not a 5000 square foot house. And you realize that all of that covered space has a number to it as well. And sometimes it can be almost as much as the condition square footage number. And so we try to be upfront and realistic about that. 00:38:13:13 - 00:38:18:16 Speaker 3 If they're the kind of people that want to have an outdoor lifestyle like that. 00:38:18:18 - 00:38:41:13 Speaker 1 Building, building a, a sheetrock box, like a a bedroom or just a a game room or something like that is pretty cheap space to build, right? But you go outdoors and you know, you've got a fireplace and you've got tongue and groove wood on the ceiling and you've got expensive tile on the floors and you've got an outdoor kitchen and it's like all that stuff is way more expensive than indoor space. 00:38:41:13 - 00:39:05:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. And so that's not reflected in that, that, kind of that cost per air condition, square foot number. I think that people get stuck in their head, kind of shifting away from budge a little bit and talking about process and, and setting expectations for process. You know, we we touched on timeline a little bit, how do you explain your process for a design? 00:39:05:18 - 00:39:25:23 Speaker 1 You know, again, you, you talked about your, your, your questionnaire survey, whatever you want to call that, that document that you use. Yeah. How do you how do you set the expectations for what your process looks like, not only your timeline, but also what they're going to be receiving from you? How often are you going to meet all that sort of stuff? 00:39:26:01 - 00:39:27:02 Speaker 1 You want to tackle it? 00:39:27:04 - 00:39:58:13 Speaker 3 Well, I think one of the things is walking through, a drawing set is helpful to, especially relative to cost and if we know that it's easy to just kind of taking it back to budget fit, but for the projects, it's not just about the materials that you're selecting. A lot of it is about the level of expectation and the level of expectation, is communicated oftentimes through the set of drawings. 00:39:58:15 - 00:40:38:08 Speaker 3 And so if we issue a set of drawings that's 40 pages long versus 20 pages long, a builder is going to instantly look at that and say, there's a high level of expectations here for how these details get resolved. While that is the kind of architect that we like to be very involved with, all of the details and really working through specifying everything down to a level of finish, we have to be cautious about whatever we do that to, based on the owner's budget and whether or not it's the kind of I mean, we have projects in the office right now where it it will be a 40 plus page set of drawings, and then 00:40:38:08 - 00:40:43:12 Speaker 3 somewhere it needs to be. But almost half that based on they can afford. 00:40:43:12 - 00:40:52:08 Speaker 1 And so yeah, yeah. Because there's 40 pages represent a lot of hours. Right. And, and and a lot of hours equate to fees. 00:40:52:13 - 00:41:21:18 Speaker 2 Right. And a lot of time spent with them. I think one of the things that we always tell our clients is that, you know, ultimately we're creating a set of document that the two dimensional representation of a three dimensional space. And so no matter how detailed our drawings are and how great the drawings set is, there's still an interpretation that happens when I hand that to the builder and and whoever is going to look at it in the field. 00:41:21:20 - 00:41:47:16 Speaker 2 And so I think for us, part of our deliverable do is telling them that we're not going to hand the drawing to the builder and walk away from the project because there are questions that arise along the way, no matter how great our set is. And sometimes there's problems, sometimes there are, other solutions that might be better, for the project as, as a, as it enters construction. 00:41:47:16 - 00:42:03:23 Speaker 2 And we like to have this open dialog communication with our builder and the sub so that if there's a better solution where we're there to work through it together as a team, and, and create the best possible project for the client in the process. 00:42:03:23 - 00:42:26:04 Speaker 1 When people are interviewing architects, there's a big difference in the level of service that that they can get. I mean, and some architects have like a minimum that they say, you know, I won't do less than this. Like I require doing construction administration. Or hey, I'll give you a set of plans and wash my hands. But that's part of the conversation. 00:42:26:06 - 00:42:41:11 Speaker 1 When people are interviewing you too is like, what level of involvement do you have? What level of service do you want to provide all your clients? Versus what am I, as a client, expecting to to get right? 00:42:41:13 - 00:42:43:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 00:42:43:01 - 00:43:00:03 Speaker 1 And that greatly, you know, equals cost. Right. Because again, it's all about number of hours and how much you're going to be involved in and what you're you know, what your time is worth. So, you know, there's a there's a huge difference in cost when people are interviewing architects. You know, I, I hear this as a builder all the time. 00:43:00:03 - 00:43:18:15 Speaker 1 When they come to me, they're like, well, so-and-so was, you know, x dollars per square foot for plans. And so-and-so was, you know, this much more per square foot. These people are wanting a percentage of the project. It's like, you know, that's crazy. Yeah. Why would I ever pay that much for plans? And I'm like, well, what are you getting for that cost? 00:43:18:15 - 00:43:30:00 Speaker 1 You know, are you just getting ten pages and a pat on the back, or are you getting personal service all the way through the project? Are you getting inspections? You know, what's what's in that cost? 00:43:30:02 - 00:43:37:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good question. And how much interaction did the architect have with you when they created that set of drawings? 00:43:37:10 - 00:44:11:17 Speaker 3 A process is very involved. And as Heather said, we start with multiple solutions as opposed to just throwing out the first one. That seems plausible with a good custom architect, there is a somewhat of a lengthy process because effectively it's not a quick solution usually, especially when you're thinking about single family residential. I mean, there is a scenario where that's the case, but that's not the world in which we operate, and we really allow clients to take their time and think through the various options that they've given, and we think through all the selections with them. 00:44:11:17 - 00:44:38:21 Speaker 3 And then it's almost at every step of the process, even down to the selections or thinking about how does this either reinforce or negate the initial premises of the project that we started with? And so hopefully in the end, it all feels cyclical, and it feels like it comes back to the initial priorities and some of the initial, values that were set in the beginning and the things that made everyone excited about the project. 00:44:38:23 - 00:45:10:03 Speaker 2 Well, this whole podcast is about expectations too, and I think, a set of drawings is explaining a set of expectations. And that set of drawings is the contract between the client and the builder. Right? Like that is the document that you use that says when, when you sign on the dotted line and you say, I'm going to pay this much for this house, the number that is on that piece of paper was based off of a set of drawings, and that drawings is the set of expectations. 00:45:10:03 - 00:45:30:12 Speaker 2 And so if the expectations are really high, it might take a lot more drawings. And if the expectations are I really need three bedrooms because I have three kids or whatever, it's like, the expectation is, is maybe a more simple expectation than, yeah, more pragmatic expectation, then you might only take ten pages. 00:45:30:12 - 00:45:52:06 Speaker 3 So yeah, we I feel like you can kind of quickly start to understand that based on how in those initial interviews, the owner talks about projects and what they're excited about, if they are just overall like a certain sense of space and they just need certain solutions that, kind of said are based on the number of rooms or the way a certain space feels. 00:45:52:06 - 00:46:20:14 Speaker 3 But and we've had this people that start pointing out certain curtain wall details or window wall details and like, oh, I really like it when the the mullions look like this versus this and you're like, okay, this is a different level of expectation, right? And, and we have to adjust our drawing set accordingly because like I said, it's a matter of what that individual individual's value and what they view as important relative to their project. 00:46:20:16 - 00:46:46:20 Speaker 1 I like what Heather said about the drawings maybe kind of being what the contract is based on, and that's that. That's very true. And I think as a builder, if I get a really, really great, detailed set of plans, it actually makes my job easier on on giving an accurate bid and writing an accurate scope of work. If I get a bare minimum set of plans, I have to spend a lot of time actually like spelling out what it is that I'm providing, right? 00:46:46:22 - 00:47:08:06 Speaker 1 So if I get like a barebones set of plans now, I'm going room by room and saying, okay, I'm doing this, this detail in this room, I'm doing using this product here. And I'm, I'm spending way more time defining what that relationship is. Whereas if I get a complete set of plans, it's like, you're doing this millwork detail, you're installing these windows, then I'm like, okay, right. 00:47:08:08 - 00:47:28:17 Speaker 1 Like I'm on my contract. I just put refer to plans for that detail, right? It saves me a ton of time, and I would much rather get that level of detail than have to kind of work at work. All that out of out of my own. So now I'm spending my time and I'm also spending time with the client before we ever go to construction, someone has to have that conversation. 00:47:28:19 - 00:47:32:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Whether it's you or me, somebody has to have the conversation. 00:47:32:09 - 00:47:48:18 Speaker 3 Right? And I mean, for better or for worse, that set of drawings is also in from informing the level of stuff that you put on the project. And so if you see that there's a lot of detail and, there are a lot of particular alignments, you're going to say, I need to put my team framer on this, right? 00:47:48:18 - 00:48:18:17 Speaker 3 Yep. Or same with millwork. Right. As opposed to the drawing set is looser and that's not specified. You and the budget is an issue. You can begin to, you know, consider a less expensive subcontractor, which goes back to the whole drawing set and expectations because if you put together a loose set of drawings, you might it could easily infer that possibly you could use an IT less expensive sub for certain things because the detail just isn't there yet. 00:48:18:23 - 00:48:28:16 Speaker 2 Oh, there's just a ton of room for interpretation. It's like the more room there is for interpretation, the more swing there is. And what the possibility of your budget is. 00:48:28:18 - 00:48:53:06 Speaker 1 And the absolute worst combination is when you get, not an undated old set of drawings and a builder who doesn't define what he's going to do. That that's a really bad situation. In fact, as a consultant, I see this a lot where people get into a project and, the builder does some work, and the client's like, well, why did you do that? 00:48:53:06 - 00:49:09:12 Speaker 1 And the builders are like, oh, it's what I always do. Well, yeah, but that's not what I wanted. Well, the plans don't say that. Right. And so the builders are just going to kind of do his, his standard detail. But that may not be with the architect intended. It may not be what the client wanted, but nobody spelled it out. 00:49:09:12 - 00:49:10:18 Speaker 1 So that's what you get. 00:49:10:19 - 00:49:46:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. The last place you want to learn about what your project is going to be like is when it's in the field and built, it's a really bad place to learn about it. I think one of the things that's been so great for us, it's really helped architecture in a ton of ways, is how accessible and easy it is for us to create three dimensional representations now, and that that actually becomes part of our design process from the very beginning, when those programs weren't so great, it was a little bit dangerous because clients would look at, a rendering of something and then be upset that it didn't look like the rendering. 00:49:46:14 - 00:50:03:13 Speaker 2 But, but now the rendering softwares are so amazing these days, and so we're able to get pretty close, through the design process to make sure that they're understanding what it's going to feel like whenever they step foot into the project. Kind of a game changer. 00:50:03:15 - 00:50:27:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. We had a client actually pretty recently who, we showed them, in fact, we we spoke about this on a recent podcast, actually, I think, certain clients tend to ignore all the, all the, the contract details early on, but then later, all of a sudden, they start honing in on it. Right? So, you know, doctors are kind of like the worst about this, honestly. 00:50:27:18 - 00:50:53:19 Speaker 1 Like, doctors tend to be, like very, very high level initially. And then once it's built, they're like, wait a minute, what's that? So we did this project where we showed that the doctor, some 3D renderings of a space, and she signed off on it. She's like, yeah, it works great. But you know, in our plans, it wasn't exactly like the renderings because the renderings are, again, it's really hard to get all these details just right on the renderings. 00:50:53:21 - 00:51:04:17 Speaker 1 And so when it got built, she's like, wait a minute, the cabinets are different than the renderings. I'm like, yeah, but the renderings were more of a conceptual thing. Like just filling out the space. She's like, no, no, I wanted that. 00:51:04:21 - 00:51:05:09 Speaker 2 You have to be. 00:51:05:09 - 00:51:15:11 Speaker 1 Careful that I'm like, well, the plans and then the specifications that we wrote didn't say that. And you didn't read that. She was like, yeah, but I like the renderings. You got to be really careful in what you show people for sure. 00:51:15:11 - 00:51:50:22 Speaker 2 And I think for us a lot of times where we're rendering that early on and then as the process runs into construction documents, we're actually going through the actual construction documents that with them, and we're teaching them about the drawings like this is this is what this symbol means. It means you can reference, the detail for that on this page, and you should go look at it and kind of, you know, just kind of like you said earlier, just educate the client about the process and make sure that they do understand what this document is that's about to go into their contract. 00:51:51:00 - 00:52:02:22 Speaker 3 Enough. And that's the type of client that appreciates that level of detail. Also gets excited to to see it and understand the the background behind how it's achieved. 00:52:03:00 - 00:52:29:19 Speaker 1 All right. So last thing that I wanted to get into was talking about architecture fees, because I think, again, people go into this not knowing really what to expect in the way of fees, you know, like I said a minute ago, like people hear this, you know, he charges X dollars a square foot and this guy is so much more, you know, without getting into exactly what you guys charge, because that's a really hard thing to even say, because I know you're not like a per square foot type firm, right? 00:52:29:21 - 00:52:43:18 Speaker 1 What what types of payment arrangements do you guys typically do in your firm? And is it the same for new construction versus remodel? You guys do hourly. Do you do a fixed fee or percentage. What do you do? 00:52:43:20 - 00:53:08:16 Speaker 2 We, we're really flexible, actually. And it it really gets defined by a conversation with the client. In terms of, how prepared they are, what they know that they want in the project from the get go. So we can work either hourly or we can work as a fixed fee whenever we work hourly. A lot of times we're doing it because the scope of the project might not be so defined yet. 00:53:08:18 - 00:53:32:18 Speaker 2 You know, we we don't know quite yet if they're going to, in the end, have a 3000 square foot house or a 5000 square foot house, because even they're not sure. And they're not sure if they're like, what? What it's going to take to get them where they need to be. And so, sometimes in those scenarios, we'll just suggest that will work hourly, and especially hourly through schematic design. 00:53:32:20 - 00:53:57:05 Speaker 2 Then once that scope gets defined, we can switch to a fixed fee if they're more comfortable with that. Or what normally happens is by that point we've got trust from the client and we just continually continue going hourly. At that point. But then there's other clients that, we, we know the scope pretty well. It's pretty defined whenever they start the project. 00:53:57:05 - 00:54:22:01 Speaker 2 And it's easy for us to say, okay, like we know that we can do this within this range. And some clients just like the, you know, the ability to know exactly what's coming, you know, there's there's not like this this open number, I think about lawyers a lot. And now they charge hourly and it's like the scariest thing because you just don't know where the end is going to be. 00:54:22:03 - 00:54:40:12 Speaker 2 And so we're happy to create, a fixed fee scenario to, for the clients if they're more comfortable with that. And then in those, situations, we're normally, creating deliverables that we've outlined at each step along the design process. And then they would just get billed. 00:54:40:16 - 00:55:00:18 Speaker 1 You had to protect yourself though in that like if it's a fixed fee, you don't want somebody to go two steps down the road and then say, you know what, let's go back and change the program. Right? So I would assume that even though it's a fixed fee, it's kind of like you're you're getting a sign off at each point so that if you do have to go back to square one, you're not having to eat all that time, right? 00:55:00:22 - 00:55:21:19 Speaker 3 Yeah, sure. We have to put that in our contract that we signed with the owner. So we specified the number of design iterations that we're going to do. And then we effectively say that once that schematic design phase design development phase has been signed off on that, we're moving forward. If we backtrack, then it'll just be an additional hourly fee to to address that. 00:55:21:19 - 00:55:58:18 Speaker 3 And it depending on the client and the project that may or may not actually happen. You just one of those things that you have to assess and see what what the what the real time parameters are of it. But the other thing I was going to mention is that we that that fixed fee if, if it does exist, or even when we're thinking about the overall fee relative to the construction process and the cost of construction, of course, is going to get higher the smaller the project is and it gets lower, as we're talking about a 4000 square foot house, for instance, versus a 1500 square foot house. 00:55:58:19 - 00:56:28:09 Speaker 1 Just like kind of this, this mythical cost per square foot that people always ask builders what they charge, right. It's, you know, that that cost per square foot actually goes down on big. I like my big projects because there are certain fixed costs that the builders have that are distributed more among that larger square footage. So for me to build a 20 500 square foot house, my cost per square foot might be way higher than if it was a 7000 square foot house. 00:56:28:09 - 00:56:50:08 Speaker 2 Part of the reason that happens, for us in architecture is that no matter the size of the house, there's a certain number of drawings that we have to provide. Right, to the builder for it to be able to be built. And so, you know, we're always going to have to have a floor plan and building sections and elevations, and that doesn't matter what size the houses. 00:56:50:10 - 00:57:24:12 Speaker 3 Well, and this is why we oftentimes find the cost per square foot, even though it's hard to understand, because I think sometimes some owners hear that, they think, well, why would you charge me more if I pick a countertop that's twice as expensive as another countertop? And it's like, that's kind of like getting into the weeds on it, that the reality is that we can have a 1500 square foot house with a high level of detail that, you know, upwards of $400 a square foot versus a 4000 square foot house didn't have the same level of expectations as far as detail goes. 00:57:24:12 - 00:57:45:12 Speaker 3 And it's more like $300 a square foot. And so the cost per square foot is kind of a more accurate way of thinking about how many drawings need to be produced and what is, again, the level of expectation relative to those drawings. A small house can still have a large drawing, so definitely seen that happen in big ways before. 00:57:45:14 - 00:58:23:00 Speaker 1 I like it. It's funny, I've I've kind of changed all this over the years and and maybe this is just like the, the level of clientele or the level of house that we work in has moved up over the years. But I find that a lot of our clients, who are professionals, understand hourly rates. You know, when you're dealing with, attorneys, engineers, those types of clients, they bill hourly rates to their clients and so they understand assigning an hourly rate to your time. 00:58:23:00 - 00:58:42:01 Speaker 1 And, I feel like those people, when you explain to them the number of hours that go into something, they tend to value it more than if it's just a fixed cost. So, you know, one of the changes that we've made over the last couple years is, you know, we've we've kind of transitioned from just this fixed cost builder. 00:58:42:03 - 00:59:01:05 Speaker 1 I give you a number, take it or leave it to we do some cost plus now, but but then even if we're not doing a cost plus, we're showing them a break, a breakdown of the budget, showing a markup. And then we're also showing them the number of project management hours involved and assigning a, an hourly rate to that. 00:59:01:07 - 00:59:26:01 Speaker 1 And they're like, oh, you're going to put 700 of, hours of time into my project. I understand now versus just if they saw, you know, that that that level of our tracking not there and they just saw maybe a 40% markup, they're like, oh, 40% markup, I would never pay that. But if you show them a 20% markup but 500 hours of time now, they understand why they it cost this much more. 00:59:26:03 - 00:59:41:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's really smart. I mean, we haven't been doing that yet on our Bixby's where we also itemize our hours. But, there is a ton of hours that go into every dollar that's getting billed out. So really smart way to do. 00:59:42:00 - 00:59:56:16 Speaker 1 The struggle, I think, with the hourly stuff is always, justifying those hours because people there's, there's certain clients that are always going to question that. They're like, how did you spend ten hours doing that? Yeah. And to them, it's just as simple as just making some quick changes in the computer. Right. 00:59:56:19 - 01:00:34:23 Speaker 3 Actually, yeah. You're absolutely right. I think that what people don't understand oftentimes is how many. And this is I think the difference between how we operate versus, let's say, an architect, that it's just about getting to the quickest solution is that we might produce 4 or 5, even in between the various iterations, where even if you're studying the way that, like a primary bathroom suite is going to work out and how the cabinetry and there's going to work out, we might produce like 3 or 4 different options internally before we present them with one, because it's important for us to find the best solution. 01:00:34:23 - 01:00:50:11 Speaker 3 And so there's a lot of hours that go in behind even what they actually end up seeing. And it's something we have to constantly remember to, to be transparent about so that they do understand the number of hours that we are spending on project, and they do see the value in which that we're bringing to the table. 01:00:50:12 - 01:01:10:14 Speaker 2 I mean, when clients come to us, they're hiring us to do a custom house, and that will always come with the level of risk that they have to accept, because it's not we're not developing something that is like a spec home where it's been repeated several times and all the kinks have gotten ironed out and everything's all buttoned up and perfect. 01:01:10:14 - 01:01:26:12 Speaker 2 They're asking us to create something that is completely customized to just them, which means that we have to experiment and we're going to have to, try out different things and see if it's the right fit for them. And so that inherently is going to take more time. 01:01:26:12 - 01:01:56:10 Speaker 1 I think that's a great kind of summary of this is, you know, realizing clients, realizing and valuing the fact that, you know, that we're creating a prototype every time and not a not a repeated product. I think the client expectations, you know, need to be that, you know, we as design you as design professionals, I as the builder, you know, like we're going to spend a lot of hours putting all these pieces together and understanding what it is that they want. 01:01:56:12 - 01:02:16:22 Speaker 1 And so yeah, them kind of valuing that process. And and understanding that this isn't just a quick, a quick get in, get out type thing, you know, again, it it can be like you said, there's if they come to the table with the expectations of I just need this basic level of service. Right. That that's one thing. 01:02:16:22 - 01:02:36:04 Speaker 1 But if you're if you're building a custom home or remodeling a custom home, that's generally not what you're looking for, right? If you're a builder wanting to do a spec house or something like that, or if you're just somebody that has a quick me, like, my parents have to move in with this because their health, then I've got to get this done real quick. 01:02:36:04 - 01:02:42:02 Speaker 1 Right? That's that's a totally different thing than I'm wanting to design my my home for my family for the next 20 years. 01:02:42:04 - 01:02:43:04 Speaker 2 Exactly. 01:02:43:06 - 01:02:59:10 Speaker 1 Well all right guys, well, thank you so much for for being here today. I really appreciate you. And, why don't you tell everybody who's watching and listening how to get Ahold of you if they if they're interested in learning more about H.R. And and working with you. 01:02:59:12 - 01:03:12:10 Speaker 2 You can visit our website at h.r. Design dept and department.com. We're on Instagram and Facebook and, yeah, check out our website and just, give us a call. 01:03:12:12 - 01:03:23:16 Speaker 1 Check it out and see if there as we talked about, if there if their style, if their design esthetic is something that works for you. And if it is, I definitely encourage you to call them because they are great people to work with. So again, thanks for being on today. 01:03:23:20 - 01:03:24:02 Speaker 2 Thank you. 01:03:24:02 - 01:03:47:23 Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Thank you everybody for listening and we'll see you next time on the Your Project Chopper podcast. Bye. Oh, cut. If you found this helpful enjoy listening. Please support us by liking and subscribing here on your podcast platform. And also join us on our YouTube channel. We want to continue to bring you high quality content and expert guests, and your support truly helps us to continue this journey. 01:03:48:04 - 01:03:57:00 Speaker 1 If you have any questions for me or my guests or any feedback for us, you can email us at podcast at your project shepherd.com. Thanks again.