00:00:06:17 - 00:00:27:07 Speaker 1 Welcome, and thank you for joining us on on your project Shepherd Construction Podcast. My name is Curtis Lawson with Shepherd Construction Advisors and along with my industry expert friends, I am here to guide you through these four key components of a successful project, which are demonstrated by the simple drawing of a house. The Foundation is proper planning. The left wall is your team. 00:00:27:12 - 00:00:50:16 Speaker 1 The right wall is communication and the roof is proper execution. Have all four of these components in place and your project will succeed. Whether you're building or remodeling a custom home, or if you're an architect or designer looking for inspiration, or maybe you're just interested in building science and high performance construction, you're in the right place. Please help us further our mission here by tapping that follow or subscribe button. 00:00:50:16 - 00:00:59:20 Speaker 1 Push that notification bell so that you know when our new episodes drop every week. And now let's get to today's interview. 00:00:59:22 - 00:01:14:16 Speaker 1 All right. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Your Project Shepherd podcast. We are so happy that you joined us today. And I'm so happy to have with me today, Kathleen Reardon and Susanna Divine with R.D. architecture. Welcome, ladies. 00:01:14:19 - 00:01:16:20 Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you. 00:01:16:22 - 00:01:35:01 Speaker 1 So we we met, a year or so ago. I was actually just kind of going through a lot of the architects in the area and just inviting people to coffee and just getting to know different firms and, and how you guys work. And so you were kind enough to respond and to, to go join me for coffee. 00:01:35:03 - 00:01:54:00 Speaker 1 We haven't had a chance to work together on a project yet, unfortunately. But hopefully we will pretty soon. But as I was going through and thinking about podcast topics and guests that I wanted to have on, I thought of you guys because, you know, from our conversation that we had that day and just from seeing your work, I love what you do. 00:01:54:04 - 00:02:09:15 Speaker 1 And I thought that you guys would be great to, to have on the show. So thank you. And to get started, why don't you guys just tell me a little bit about yourselves and kind of how you got together and started working together and what you guys do. 00:02:09:17 - 00:02:45:02 Speaker 3 So, we have been working together for a really long time, like Susanna, and I like to, you know, joke around and say that we are our, you know, longest, you know, relationship. So we watched each other go through all kinds of different phases of life. We met, back in 2007 when, I had just started working on my own and I was looking for an intern to help, and, had put a note in at the Art Institute because they like to have their students do internships. 00:02:45:04 - 00:03:16:08 Speaker 3 And lo and behold, one day there was a knock on my door. Knock, knock, knock. And there was Susanna saying, I want to come work for you. And so it's been, just a great, you know, design partnership through the years. And now we're business partners and, we, you know, do solely residential design and, just a really great design, duo working together on interiors and architecture. 00:03:16:09 - 00:03:17:13 Speaker 3 Hand in hand. 00:03:17:15 - 00:03:50:23 Speaker 1 And it should be clear, you do architecture and you do interiors, right? Correct. Gotcha. So what are the, you know, I love having both of those kind of from one source because it lets what you guys be working on kind of both aspects of that from the, from the very beginning. So just talk to me real quick about, you know, Susanna, the advantages as a designer of kind of being in there early and being involved in that design process, how how much better is that than waiting until the end and getting a set of plans? 00:03:51:01 - 00:04:16:20 Speaker 2 Well, we start with furniture from the very beginning. So understanding a person's needs for each space and what type of furniture they're going to need in each space is a is very important and sometimes drives the envelope and you know, a lot of times we'll ask clients, you know, what are your favorite pieces of art? What are your favorite pieces of furniture? 00:04:16:20 - 00:04:36:03 Speaker 2 If we're going to do a remodel or if we're building a new home, it helps us understand their style and they might not even know their style. But picking a few pieces or a few pieces of art that are very key, it gives us a clue what they're looking for, what they're looking towards. Yeah. 00:04:36:05 - 00:04:58:03 Speaker 1 And when some people build a house, they want to start start fresh. All new furniture, which is fine. Or oftentimes they have some item that's an heirloom or something they've had or that they love, or something specific in mind that you kind of have to work into the space because it's true. Grandma's nine foot tall Mongolian carved wood cabinet doesn't fit in every house right? 00:04:58:05 - 00:05:24:16 Speaker 2 Right, right. So the the architecture and interiors together is also where I like to say it's the full experience from curbside to bedside. So many architects or designers and my experience don't really take into account what the end user is, how they end user is going to, you know, live in the space. That's very important because we're building it for people. 00:05:24:17 - 00:05:33:03 Speaker 2 That's what homes are for. That's what they're places of sanctuary. And to me it's extremely important to have that at the beginning. 00:05:33:07 - 00:05:42:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. And and Kathleen, on the architecture side, I mean, how important is it to you to be getting the kind of that interiors feedback at the same time? 00:05:42:08 - 00:05:49:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, I actually have a, a degree in interior design. And then I got a master's in architecture. 00:05:49:12 - 00:05:50:04 Speaker 1 Right. 00:05:50:06 - 00:06:18:16 Speaker 3 So I think my perspective has always been about, you know, the human scale that they teach when you, go through an interior design program versus, you know, architecture school is everything from, you know, city planning all the way down to, you know, and you're they're really geared towards larger scale projects like libraries and office buildings, hospitals, things like that. 00:06:18:18 - 00:06:56:04 Speaker 3 You know, the home is the most intimate space. That is really important to have it be a human scale space so that people feel comfortable in their homes. So having an interiors approach, you know, understanding kind of the creature comforts, human comforts, part of it is key to having a successful project. And one of the ways that we know this is by working with people who are not comfortable with their homes to start with, and then we want to remodel it, and we start asking questions like, you know, where is your favorite place to sit? 00:06:56:06 - 00:07:11:19 Speaker 3 You know, where do you go if you don't feel well, you know, where do you go to curl up with a book or, you know, have a quiet dinner or just those kinds of questions? And if people can't answer those questions, there's a problem. 00:07:11:21 - 00:07:33:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think sometimes people come into the, into the process of wanting to remodel or build and they just come to you. I've seen this people come with a bunch of, you know, Pinterest and house stuff with these beautiful spaces or stuff they see on Instagram. And then maybe sometimes you'll look at it and you're like, you know, that's that's nice looking. 00:07:33:12 - 00:07:43:05 Speaker 1 But then how would how would you use that? You know, how based on what you're telling me about, like how you use spaces? I don't think that would work for you. Right. 00:07:43:07 - 00:08:12:01 Speaker 3 Right. I mean, it's really important for our house to have a mix of spaces. And so, you know, we're focusing on scale and proportion. And we're also focusing on the idea of refuge and prospect act. And so, you know, we're talking through these concepts, we call them arcs, you know, some of our design tools with people to help them think about their, their project a little bit more deeply. 00:08:12:03 - 00:08:28:01 Speaker 3 It's, you know, the images are cool and they have kind of an appeal of like the latest trend, or kind of like this wow factor. But, we really want people to think about how they're going to live in the space. 00:08:28:03 - 00:08:48:04 Speaker 2 We're kind of like detectives in a way, especially when you get such a broad range of inspiration images. We have to read between the lines like, okay, what are all what do all these things have in common, regardless of style or, you know, is it lots of windows and natural light? Is it the idea of the wow factor? 00:08:48:07 - 00:09:14:10 Speaker 2 They just want something impressive when they walk in, you know, what is it that they're drawn to? And so we help them determine their own style. And a lot of times that's conflicting. When you have couples where one has the grandma heirloom and the other is very modern content, you know, so you have to marry those two. And it ends up being a very eclectic, you know, true to that homeowner style. 00:09:14:12 - 00:09:32:08 Speaker 2 It's not our style. We're not we're not cookie cutters. We're not repeating our own style for them. People don't hire us because they want what we can, what style we prefer. They hire us because we listen to them and we can help them determine their own style. 00:09:32:10 - 00:09:53:11 Speaker 1 I think that that's always the case where one person where the where the the two halves or the couple, if it's a couple, have very different opinions and ideas and, you know, the jokes always that we're we're also marriage counselors on some level. Right. But you know, you you can't just throw out one person's ideas. You know, you have to find a way to kind of meet in the middle. 00:09:53:11 - 00:10:07:16 Speaker 1 And maybe that's, hey, you want to keep grandma's special thing, but let's let's find a place for it to where it fits. It doesn't look out of place, but you know, your your spouse is also getting what they want in this equation, right? 00:10:07:18 - 00:10:29:14 Speaker 3 Right. So that just goes back to, you know, how interiors can really drive the project. And so, you know, when we start the design process, we usually come up with three floor plan ideas to solve the functional problems, to fit the pieces of furniture that need to be in there just to get the house to work the way somebody wants. 00:10:29:16 - 00:10:52:02 Speaker 3 And then that, three, floor plan comparison really helps people to think about different ways of doing things. So it, it becomes a compare and contrast exercise. And then we can kind of mix and match ideas. And so it's a really robust dynamic process. And we feel like it that helps to arrive at the right solution. 00:10:52:04 - 00:10:53:08 Speaker 2 And collaborative. 00:10:53:10 - 00:10:53:15 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:10:53:15 - 00:10:59:12 Speaker 2 It's very engaging the owners to be a part of the solution. 00:10:59:13 - 00:11:17:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. So one of the things on, on, on your website and Kathleen I think was on your, your bio on your website that I liked and I pulled the quote off here was, it says I believe in teamwork during the, during the construction process, working as needed with homeowners, engineers, contractors and tradesmen with a no problems only solutions attitude. 00:11:18:00 - 00:11:40:02 Speaker 1 So I love that quote. Because I have found that oftentimes architects and designers will come into, a project that's already, you know, in progress. You know, you've designed it, the contractors doing it, and you come in and you're like, you know, this is wrong. And, and, and some people just call out, this is wrong. Fix it. 00:11:40:02 - 00:12:06:21 Speaker 1 Right. Well, you know, I've said many times there's there's no perfect set of plans, of architectural plans, design plans. There's always things that are left to interpretation, no matter how well you try to plan it. And so coming into those situations with a collaborative attitude is as a builder is so much better than, than can make than someone coming in is wagging their finger. 00:12:06:21 - 00:12:07:17 Speaker 1 Right. 00:12:07:19 - 00:12:33:12 Speaker 3 Right, right. Yeah. You know, when I was, first started out as, you know, a very, young designer, not an architect yet, I was working on a big bank project, and it was a big project for me to manage, in my past life, when I did more commercial projects and I remember the supervisor for that project, there was an issue, and he said, don't worry, Kathleen, you know, no problems, only solutions. 00:12:33:12 - 00:12:57:08 Speaker 3 We're going to figure it out. And that moment really set the tone for me and also kind of establish, like the kind of relationship I want with the builder, you know, like we're all in it together, you know, his way of being calm and just saying, no, don't worry. We're going to figure this out. That's the way projects should be with the whole team. 00:12:57:10 - 00:13:17:04 Speaker 3 And when there's there's always going to be issues with construction. That's just the nature of construction. Yeah. And we, we just want everybody around us to know that if there's a problem, regardless of whose fault it is, we just all have to be in it together to figure it out. 00:13:17:06 - 00:13:43:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think it definitely I. And so as a consultant owner's representative, I also see the builders kind of. And I'm sure that you see the city of builders kind of building up against the architect. And, you know, it's historically, you know, I think this is changing. But historically I've always seen more head butting taking place and more people digging their heels in and saying, no, this is the way it's got to be. 00:13:43:01 - 00:14:00:07 Speaker 1 I it maybe it's just, me being hopeful, but I feel like that's changing. I feel like the the environment of architect builder, you know, tradesperson homeowner is becoming more collaborative. I don't know, that's just me reading into it, but I feel like that's happening and that's what I want to happen. 00:14:00:07 - 00:14:33:23 Speaker 3 Right? Hopefully. Yeah. And you know, as time goes by building, it gets more and more complicated. All the different technologies that we're trying to get to work together, whether it's, you know, a lighting system or air conditioning system or installing, like a certain kind of tile detail or plumbing, it's difficult and we can't go. And, you know, building is a kind of based on traditions, you know, traditional ways of doing things. 00:14:34:01 - 00:14:49:05 Speaker 3 And when you change those traditions now you have to have more conversations and you have to have those conversations as a group. So if you can't collaborate, how are you going to make it through the day without losing your mind? 00:14:49:06 - 00:14:57:11 Speaker 1 And yet to have those conversations early, you know, just because because once something's framed, covered up, it's it's oftentimes too. 00:14:57:11 - 00:14:58:23 Speaker 3 Late, right. 00:14:59:00 - 00:15:22:02 Speaker 1 Again, that's why, you know, having the interiors involved on an early, early phase is super important, too, because so many of those items affect, you know, how something is framed, how something is. I mean, you know, there's nothing worse than getting an interior design selection so late in the process that now we're, like, ripping things out and doing it again. 00:15:22:04 - 00:15:30:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Because, you know, because the homeowner doesn't want to pay that change order later. And it just adds time and cost and and mess to the process. 00:15:30:11 - 00:15:58:20 Speaker 2 One of our goals during the design process is to have 90% of the selections made before construction, which our goal, the goal is to make it as smooth of a process as possible. Yeah. So there are a lot of items that either have long lead time and for smaller projects, it's particularly difficult, for builder to organize and schedule on line up. 00:15:58:20 - 00:16:03:08 Speaker 2 If you know, a tile is going to be nine weeks and a tub is going to be 24 weeks. 00:16:03:08 - 00:16:17:23 Speaker 1 Especially if it's like a remodel where the whole timeline of the project, maybe it's only 6 to 12, it's probably not six. But you know, 9 to 12 weeks, 16 weeks and a certain items or 9 or 10 weeks in the shelves. We really it's a nightmare. 00:16:18:00 - 00:16:35:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. We recommend like don't don't start demo for a smaller project. Don't start demo until everything has been ordered and you've got, you know, a good idea of when everything is going to be in or it's already in. If you've got the ability to to store that those items, get it stored, get it in, and then you can start it into the smooth process. 00:16:36:01 - 00:16:58:01 Speaker 3 Yeah, right. And then also, you know clients are busy. So we'd rather than make selections on their own schedule before construction starts instead of somebody asking them, you know, hey, we're ready for your shower valve because we're done framing and they're like wet shower valve plumbing already. You know, this is the worst two weeks of the year for me at work. 00:16:58:04 - 00:17:04:12 Speaker 3 So we really don't want them to have that kind of pressure during construction. We really want them to enjoy the process. 00:17:04:12 - 00:17:28:23 Speaker 1 I think sometimes people don't even realize that small decisions can can have a big impact. An example that I like to use with clients sometimes is something is seemingly simple and silly, is like cabinet hardware. They're like, we're just picking at the end. It doesn't really matter. But sometimes it does. When you're laying out cabinets and you've got a cabinet door that's intersecting a corner, and you've got cabinet hardware that protrudes a certain distance. 00:17:28:23 - 00:17:38:08 Speaker 1 And now you've got drawers that are banging each other. You you can't open something all the way. And it's like, well, if we to just plan this out and pick that out six months ago, we wouldn't be having this problem right now. 00:17:38:12 - 00:17:42:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, that sounds like a story from experience. 00:17:42:06 - 00:17:46:22 Speaker 1 Yes. Well, I mean, all good stories come from. Yeah, good lessons come from that experience, right? 00:17:46:22 - 00:17:48:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. Exactly. 00:17:48:02 - 00:17:59:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I was yeah, I always like to tell people a lot of the stuff that I talk about, the mistakes I talk about or things that I've, that I've made, you know, in the last 20 years I've, I've had all these problems. 00:17:59:03 - 00:18:14:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's, sometimes I think, you know, construction is kind of like baseball. It's a game of failure. But you, you know, you get a lot of strikeouts, but you get enough home runs that you just want to keep going back, back and doing it again. It's just it feels so great when you get it right. 00:18:14:22 - 00:18:20:19 Speaker 1 You just do three out of every ten projects, right? I mean, you're in the hall of Famer. Yeah, that 300. You're in the Hall of Fame. 00:18:20:21 - 00:18:22:04 Speaker 3 That's right. Yeah. 00:18:22:04 - 00:18:36:01 Speaker 1 Backing up too was something that you mentioned a minute ago. And this is on your website actually, which will try to pop some photos on there for sure. Link it. But there's, there's a section on your website, it says methods and it talks about some things like. 00:18:36:04 - 00:18:36:14 Speaker 2 Sideline. 00:18:36:18 - 00:18:57:09 Speaker 1 What it says if sightlines and thinking of the diagonal angles and all those kinds of things. Can we just talk about some of that stuff and, and talk about kind of what your, your methods are? So one of the things that I wanted to kind of achieve on this podcast episode was talking about pulling back the curtain of good design and and thinking through the methods of good design. 00:18:57:09 - 00:19:00:20 Speaker 1 So I just wanted to touch on that because I thought that was a great, a great portion of your website. 00:19:00:22 - 00:19:01:20 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 00:19:01:22 - 00:19:41:04 Speaker 2 So I'll start with sightlines was we talked about curbside to bedside. So for us, it's the entire experience that a homeowner has from the moment they drive in, they want to yes, I'm home. I'm in my sanctuary. I'm I get to have a cup of coffee at the end of night or a cocktail and just relax. So when you imagine pulling up and, and walking in and every view, every pivot point where you shift your foot or change your, you know, position, it should all look beautiful and so to, to us, those sightlines, you know, are really important. 00:19:41:04 - 00:20:08:05 Speaker 2 And we often will draw in, you know, long sightlines to engage the owners or, you know, the clients in like understanding. Here's your longest diagonal look, how long look how wide and long and big this room looks or the your space looks. Now that we've opened this up, instead of looking into the wall, you're looking out to a window or looking out a window to a beautiful view. 00:20:08:07 - 00:20:36:11 Speaker 2 So those are all important aspects and and everything to me was I'm as I'm designing and I'm drawing things out, I'm imagining myself as the homeowner and that space and like taking a photo, you know, of every view going, yes, this is really pretty. Yes, this is really pretty. And to me, that's the the sign of a successful design is being able to move through the space and have every view that you move in to be a really nice, calm one. 00:20:36:15 - 00:20:36:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:20:36:22 - 00:20:55:04 Speaker 1 And also thinking through like what to exclude. Right. And so if you're you know, I'm thinking of my own house right now as you're talking about this, I'm thinking I've got a big picture window in my living room. It looks out onto the street, but yet I don't want my teenagers running around in their underwear out in front of that window for all the world to see. 00:20:55:06 - 00:21:03:01 Speaker 1 You know, if you're if you're sitting there drinking your coffee in the morning, there's certain things that you don't want to be seeing. So it's thinking about what to include as well as exclude, right? 00:21:03:02 - 00:21:23:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. And you know, like one of the things to be, you know, watchful for is, a lot of homes are really open. So you need to be, you know, thinking about, well, what kind of appliances do you see as you walk in and go through, like, are you okay seeing, you know, all your appliances when you walk in through the front door, right. 00:21:23:09 - 00:21:36:14 Speaker 3 Or, you know, views into bathrooms, you know, trying to situate like a powder room, so that if the door's left open, you're not really seeing it from like the dining room or the kitchen. 00:21:36:16 - 00:21:41:15 Speaker 1 Or guests are uncomfortable. If a guest is going to use that powder bath, they don't feel awkward going into. 00:21:41:15 - 00:22:10:04 Speaker 3 Exactly. And sometimes when you're looking at the plan just the way our, our brains, process the plan view, it's not readily apparent what those sight lines are, you know, because we're we're processing it as a collection of rectangles that are connected to each other. And so talking about sight lines, I think is a really important awareness for somebody looking at a floor plan to understand what they're going to see. 00:22:10:04 - 00:22:20:02 Speaker 3 And reality, it's kind of like designing a movie set, you know, you don't think about it and plan view. You think about what the people are going to be seeing on the screen. Yeah. 00:22:20:04 - 00:22:21:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Where the camera views. 00:22:21:09 - 00:22:22:07 Speaker 3 Are, where the camera views. 00:22:22:07 - 00:22:42:03 Speaker 2 Are. And you made a perfect point as far as the privacy. Privacy is just as important as having that prospect and refuge. Right. So, you know, where is the shower, where are the where are the bathrooms situated? You know, are there windows? What types of, you know, what's on the other side of that window. Yeah. 00:22:42:05 - 00:23:00:07 Speaker 1 Well, and it also changes with, with who's going to be using the space. If you've got a, if you've got a like let's say a bathroom where you've got two kids sharing a bathroom, one's a boy, one's a girl, they might want some more privacy. So if it's a, if it's a Jack and Jill bath, you know, because not everybody can afford to have a an en suite bathroom. 00:23:00:07 - 00:23:08:06 Speaker 1 Every kid. Right. So if you have a shared bath, like how are you going to lay that out. So it's not is is awkward especially as kids are aging and things like that. 00:23:08:06 - 00:23:14:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. Is there a private tub room right where someone can brush their teeth while another is showering? 00:23:14:03 - 00:23:27:04 Speaker 1 I think in the like the open floor plans that are are so popular it becomes even more challenging, right? With the sight lines. Because we have all these houses now where you walk in the front door and it's just everything's there. 00:23:27:04 - 00:23:29:16 Speaker 2 There's no sense of entry. It just dumps you into the space. 00:23:29:16 - 00:23:49:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. And, you know, that really, plays into the concept of prospect and refuge. You know, prospect being the idea of, like, seeing a space, you know, like, I want to go there. Oh, that looks really interesting. Or that looks comfortable. I want to I want to go be in that space. It calls to you and refuge. 00:23:49:18 - 00:24:11:11 Speaker 3 So I think that's kind of the prospect is kind of the easier concept. I think refuge is the one that, people kind of forget about or don't think about because it's it's not really kind of like the magazine shot or it's not like the impressive space, but refuge is the space that you want to go to when you want to be by yourself or have a cup of coffee. 00:24:11:11 - 00:24:39:13 Speaker 3 There's also the idea of having a perch. So like recently I was visiting with a potential client about remodeling their home. They had no, perch spot in their in their house, and that would be like a spot at, like, kitchen island or a bar or someplace where one person can sit and drink a cup of coffee and, you know, watch their kid do homework or watch somebody else cook or, you know, look at their laptop. 00:24:39:15 - 00:24:46:15 Speaker 3 And it was like, how where do you go when you want to do these activities? They just didn't have that space. 00:24:46:17 - 00:25:05:19 Speaker 1 Right? I think people don't don't think of it that way. They don't think of, I mean, I think everybody has that spot, right? I mean, even even in a poorly planned house. So people don't have that designed and they're going to create it whether they realize it or not. Right? They're going to kind of create I mean, you know, it's people go to a church, they always sit in the exact same spot. 00:25:05:21 - 00:25:27:19 Speaker 1 It's the same thing in your home. It's like you subconsciously kind of go to this one spot and that's your spot, right? I think back to my, you know, my dad had his his spot here where he was always that, so whether you intend to or not, you've got that, that spot in your house and I think about my wife, she, she has her or her perch in the kitchen to where she's sitting at the bar, and she can kind of see everything that's going on and monitor it. 00:25:27:19 - 00:25:28:01 Speaker 1 Right? 00:25:28:05 - 00:25:40:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, yeah, you know, kind of, a, you know, sense of being able to see and control your surroundings. And so those that's, you know, those are the kinds of things that we talk about when we design for people. 00:25:41:00 - 00:25:49:17 Speaker 1 What else on that. And a I have pull up right now, but what else on that on that methods section. What other concepts are you guys looking at as far as that goes? 00:25:49:17 - 00:26:38:07 Speaker 2 So choreography is the one that's listed. And it's not necessarily about enough space to dance, but choreography is the art of movement. And we move, we're humans, we are built to move. And the space that we create and design should, you know, live up to what we need of it. Right. So having enough room to circulate, one example I was thinking of, you know, we have a family of 10 or 11 and, you know, this racetrack effect, anytime that there's, you know, a place where, you know, a kid can ride their scooter if you allow them to write it in the house or, you know, to chase the dog, that it's kind of 00:26:38:07 - 00:27:00:15 Speaker 2 out of the way, you know, it gives that racetrack to it back. And there's there's more circulation to play. So choreography is about the movement of the space and how people move within their space. You know, a very simple, basic example that I'm sure everybody knows by now is the the work triangle in the kitchen. Right. That's not beautiful movement per se. 00:27:00:18 - 00:27:17:04 Speaker 2 But it's beautiful when it's efficient. And you can you know really get take care of business in the kitchen. Efficiently. There's nothing worse than having an island right in the middle of your work triangle, and you have to walk around it to get to the, to the refrigerator. 00:27:17:08 - 00:27:22:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. Or. Yeah, go around the island from the stove to the sink and it's like, you know. 00:27:22:02 - 00:27:48:18 Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, and then making sure that we have the right furniture in the plans is really important to achieve that. You know, we want to make sure that it's scaled properly to the space and, you know, so understanding scale and proportion is another, another, important tool for us. And one thing to note is that everybody seems to have their own sense of scale. 00:27:48:20 - 00:28:13:09 Speaker 3 Not and people are not all the same. And so a really great example of this is, we had a client who was a dancer, and I was just having, you know, trying to understand her sense of scale and just feeling like I'm just not getting a complete understanding of what's important to her, what she needs. And finally we went to, Restoration Hardware to look at furniture together. 00:28:13:14 - 00:28:35:08 Speaker 3 So it's like, let's go look at some furniture together, because I really want to see what you're drawn to. And we went into the store and there were 12ft ceilings, and she was like, this is the space that I feel comfortable with. Like, okay, you have a really grand sense of scale, like, this is what you need. And that's very different from my own sense of scale. 00:28:35:10 - 00:28:54:20 Speaker 3 So I have to kind of step outside what makes sense to me and kind of step into her shoes, the dancer shoes. So that's just think about where how you feel comfortable. Is it nine foot ceilings? Ten foot ceilings for her is 12ft ceilings, bigger spaces, smaller spaces. Not everybody's the same. 00:28:54:22 - 00:29:19:15 Speaker 2 And restoration of her was perfect segue because there are different there's a petite, a regular and like a grand or a great and like they always have. Well, most of their furniture has three different scales. And so that's a, you know, understanding how large of a piece of furniture do you want in your space. It goes back to, you know, why interior design is really important at the beginning? 00:29:19:17 - 00:29:30:11 Speaker 2 Because if you were expecting to put a 10 or 12ft long sectional, we need to make sure that there's enough space in the room for that. And there's enough circulation space around that. Yeah. 00:29:30:16 - 00:29:56:05 Speaker 1 All right. I mean, that's a that's a great commercial right there for for working with a professional designer, because how many people will go to the furniture store and they, they see a piece of furniture they like, and it looks fantastic at the furniture store. They sit on it, they love it. They put it in their house and they're like, this does not work in my house or in or, or maybe you go into somebody's house, they've got this massive couch in the small room and you're like, who picked this out? 00:29:56:05 - 00:30:04:15 Speaker 1 Right? Yeah. It's, you know, it's a great advertisement for using these services. Right. But that that's why we have designers. 00:30:04:19 - 00:30:08:01 Speaker 3 The furniture has to live in the house, too, and it needs to be comfortable. 00:30:08:05 - 00:30:23:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, I actually pulled up your website while you're sitting here talking, just so I could review what's on this, this page. The last item that we didn't touch on yet is, natural light and kind of the importance of, planning for sunlight and the path of the sun through the day and how that affects our health. 00:30:23:16 - 00:30:25:04 Speaker 1 So can you all touch on that real quick? 00:30:25:08 - 00:30:56:06 Speaker 3 Exactly. So, you know, we have four different orientations, you know, morning sun, east, south facing, which sometimes we want to protect from that sun West sun, which for the most part in Houston because of you know, it gets so hot. We want to protect from West Sun. But I think it's really important to, have a little bit of West Sun coming into the house at a strategic location to signal the end of the day. 00:30:56:08 - 00:31:17:15 Speaker 3 And then, of course, the northern exposure, which is wonderful because that's just a nice soft light that, does not add a lot of heat gain to the house. So we talk to people about, you know, when you wake up, what do you expect? Do you want a lot of light in your bedroom? Do you want it to stay dark in the morning? 00:31:17:17 - 00:31:47:19 Speaker 3 You know, is in general natural light and important to your to your mental health, to your well-being. And some people love a lot of light, but there are also some people who are kind of like, keep the curtains closed, you know, want things to be a little bit darker. And then along with that, just discussions about, you know, how much, artificial lighting, you know, do we want in the house and, how bright do things need to be? 00:31:47:21 - 00:31:56:00 Speaker 3 Can we let some rooms get a little bit darker at the end of the day to kind of help ease into, you know, going to going to bed, going to sleep. 00:31:56:06 - 00:32:15:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. This transition times are really important. And I think that's something that gets overlooked when people are planning lighting. In fact, this is something that I, I kind of fight, on a daily basis at my house because. Yeah. So, so when I redesign my kitchen, we've got our overhead lighting, our recessed cans that when you hit that switch, it lights it up. 00:32:15:23 - 00:32:33:15 Speaker 1 And it's great for working. Right. The first thing in the morning. It's not what I want to walk into. So my kids have a tendency to walk in and hit that main overhead switch and, you know, go nuclear and light everything up right. When I walk in in the morning, I want some soft light for the transition. So I want the under cabinet task lighting. 00:32:33:15 - 00:32:49:10 Speaker 1 I want kind of the, the more, you know, ambient light, not not like the bright overhead light. Right, right. And so thinking through how your lighting is designed and how that affects just kind of your, your mental state is important as well. 00:32:49:15 - 00:33:28:06 Speaker 3 Right? So, you know, it's like we're so used to having all of this overhead lighting, as you know, or artificial lighting. But, you know, capturing that morning sun in the West sun is really important because, you know, it's entering your eye at a different angle. And I think, you know, like you also might want to do some more, table lamps or things like that, that kind of mimic that level of lighting, just to make it more dynamic, you know, people who have, maybe a hard time setting their sleep schedule or, you know, going to bed at the right time and then feeling more alert in the morning. 00:33:28:06 - 00:33:44:06 Speaker 3 I think, you know, scientists are starting to understand that exposure to morning light is really important to set your schedule. So we want to pay attention to that light that that's coming in low, not just everything all overhead. 00:33:44:08 - 00:34:04:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean there have been a lot more studies about the effect of lighting on our bodies, and especially when it comes to bones. And I like that, that unnatural light that, that people tend to have right in front of their face right before they go to bed. And then they wonder why they can't go to sleep easily while you're laying in bed staring at this, this close to your face. 00:34:04:10 - 00:34:08:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, right up until the moment you turn the lights out, or sometimes after you turn the lights out. 00:34:08:23 - 00:34:09:10 Speaker 3 Right. 00:34:09:12 - 00:34:14:18 Speaker 1 So just thinking through how that how that light affects your, your body and your mind is important. 00:34:14:21 - 00:34:16:04 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. 00:34:16:06 - 00:34:43:06 Speaker 1 I love that that whole section of your website though. So for people listening, definitely go go check that out. I wanted to talk real quickly about how you work with clients to balance their wish lists and wish lists and good design and ideas versus what their budgets are. I think this is the eternal struggle between builders and contractors and designers and homeowners just kind of managing that or balancing that. 00:34:43:06 - 00:34:55:04 Speaker 1 Right. So how do you handle it? And I let you decide who can who can start on this, but how do you handle when somebody comes? You got all these grand ideas and all the stuff they want, but their budgets like this. 00:34:55:08 - 00:35:13:05 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I would say that this is definitely one of the most challenging things that we do. And, you know, we always wish that we just had a magic wand so we can design. And then Bing, you know, the building would be built. But that's not reality. And especially as construction costs, you know, continue to, to increase. 00:35:13:07 - 00:35:43:05 Speaker 3 You know, one of the things that we do from the start is to try to talk about budgets of past projects and what those past projects were about. And, you know, maybe share some, you know, very simple likes, spreadsheets of, you know, here's how much cost went into foundation and millwork and painting and, you know, just so people can understand what all is going into a project. 00:35:43:07 - 00:36:01:05 Speaker 3 And sometimes we'll use, you know, shopping for groceries analogy because it's something that everybody can relate to. And so it's like, you know, say you're going to, you know, make spaghetti for dinner and you go to the store and you're like, great, you know, $20. We've got it. Spaghetti, sauce, spaghetti, some meat. You know, a little bit of salad. 00:36:01:05 - 00:36:10:23 Speaker 3 We're done. But the reality is, is you want to buy that nice bottle of wine and you know, that artisan parmesan cheese caught your eye and. 00:36:10:23 - 00:36:14:04 Speaker 1 You don't want the prego or the ragu. You want the gourmet. 00:36:14:04 - 00:36:15:21 Speaker 2 So organic. 00:36:15:23 - 00:36:22:20 Speaker 3 Sauce. And you know, before you know it, you're, you know, $20 budget, you know, now it's like $50. 00:36:22:20 - 00:36:24:05 Speaker 1 Should just go with eat. 00:36:24:07 - 00:36:39:15 Speaker 3 So yeah. So the same thing, you know, happens when we're designing. It's really easy to add all these things to the cart, and you don't realize how they're adding up until the very end, and then you're kind of it's a shock. 00:36:39:17 - 00:37:06:04 Speaker 2 So we're pretty upfront with people at the beginning managing expectations is just part of our our strategy to help, you know manage expectations okay. So we're honest about you know if they're looking at a particular type of window system. That's a good example because it's a perfect, gauge of what their expectations are for quality. Right. 00:37:06:04 - 00:37:25:20 Speaker 2 Go window shopping and tell us what you know, what you're attracted to. So windows can be your basic budget, or they can be a very high, high priced item. And when oftentimes when they see the difference, it's somewhere in the middle like, okay, what's, you know, what is our priority. 00:37:25:22 - 00:37:49:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. So you know, if we're starting the design and they're like, okay, we're going to start working on the selections. You know, the window selection can really set the tone and help us work with that client moving forward. And then, you know, we'll try to give choices on things. So and how people, you know, understand their priorities. 00:37:49:09 - 00:37:58:01 Speaker 3 So it might be like, well, these windows are really important to us. I'm like, okay, let's make the stair design a little bit more simple. Or do you, do you. 00:37:58:01 - 00:38:13:18 Speaker 2 Really need a two double sided fireplace? Right. You know, what is you know, the detailing of that and the maintenance of that as well is also another thing. It's not just about the cost upfront but the long term cost. Yeah. I mean, this particular. 00:38:13:18 - 00:38:37:18 Speaker 1 Systems, the staircase is a is a good example in my opinion because a staircase can be very utilitarian. You can have a staircase that's kind of tucked back. That's not an open grand staircase to where it's just a simple straight up and down, you know, it's not open at all. And that's not an expensive thing. But now you slide it into the foyer where it's open on two sides and there's a switch back or it's curved. 00:38:37:18 - 00:38:43:04 Speaker 1 And, you know, now that went from a whatever, a $10,000 item to a $50,000 item, a heartbeat, right? 00:38:43:06 - 00:39:06:07 Speaker 3 You know, it doesn't have like, it. You know, glass railing system or, you know, something where all of a sudden the the balustrade is, you know, well beyond, you know what anybody would guess that would cost, you know, cabinets is a big thing. So just reminding like, hey, you know, we're drawing another cabinet, that's another cost that's going to be a part of the budget. 00:39:06:09 - 00:39:07:03 Speaker 3 00:39:07:05 - 00:39:08:21 Speaker 2 Built ins, built ins everywhere. 00:39:08:21 - 00:39:10:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. Like let's not have built ins. 00:39:10:13 - 00:39:11:18 Speaker 2 You can, you know some. 00:39:11:18 - 00:39:12:18 Speaker 3 Furniture and let's. 00:39:12:18 - 00:39:19:04 Speaker 2 Do a furniture and a nook there instead. That's where grandma's piece can get right. 00:39:19:04 - 00:39:44:14 Speaker 1 Although sometimes you know, you know buying the furniture can actually be more expensive. So you also have to understand what their overall budget is not just for the home but also for the home and furnishings. Because if they're, you know, reusing stuff, that could be a big savings. But if they plan on on furnishing completely, completely new the whole house, maybe it is cheaper to spend $1,000 on the built in and not buy a piece of furniture, right? 00:39:44:15 - 00:39:49:04 Speaker 1 It's being able to approach it from the big picture perspective, right? 00:39:49:07 - 00:39:52:04 Speaker 3 Yeah. So you're saying you can do a built in for $1,000? 00:39:52:10 - 00:39:58:06 Speaker 1 It depends on what the building is. I mean, yes, I can do a built in for $1,000. It depends on what it is. 00:39:58:06 - 00:40:00:03 Speaker 3 We want to see that built in. 00:40:00:05 - 00:40:01:08 Speaker 1 It's a it's a bookshelf. 00:40:01:10 - 00:40:03:22 Speaker 3 So we can set expectations. Yeah. 00:40:04:02 - 00:40:30:02 Speaker 2 But it goes back to interiors being a part of the beginning. It's like what furniture do you want to keep or is this a complete start from scratch kind of thing. Right. And is that part of your budget? You know, is the furniture part of your budget and is landscaping? A lot of times we will include the not secondary costs, but like outside costs that, you know, think of like, okay, this is the design phase and the construction cost. 00:40:30:02 - 00:40:46:18 Speaker 2 But then there's that's for the building and then you've got the landscaping. And do you want a pool and an engineering and civil engineer. You know. So we try to include that as at the beginning. So they have a full awareness of what they're kind of getting. Yeah. 00:40:46:21 - 00:41:05:08 Speaker 1 We are landscaper on a couple of episodes ago. And you know, he was bemoaning the fact that the landscaping is always like the last thing that gets thought of and that budget always is the first thing to get chopped because you're at the end and you're like, I can just do the landscaping later, you know, that that has to be planned for, up front. 00:41:05:08 - 00:41:26:03 Speaker 1 Otherwise you're going to wind up with just some, some grass in your yard. And that's it. All right. But, you know, designing the landscaping is kind of part of the holistic approach to designing the home and kind of what you guys are trying to achieve. And that's not just thinking about, you know, one piece of it. It's thinking of the project as a whole and designing the whole thing for success. 00:41:26:06 - 00:41:47:04 Speaker 3 Right? Right. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, we'll do some conceptual landscape designs as we're designing the house, just to make sure that, you know, it's a comprehensive design. People are thinking about, you know, how how is that space going to be used in terms of landscape? For sure. 00:41:47:06 - 00:42:14:16 Speaker 2 So we were talking about cost and ideas of how to meet budget, the client's budget and the client's wish list. And I'll, you know, inspiration images are really helpful when you know the with the ideas of, you know, what they'd like or what they're what they're wanting. Tile can be tile and plumbing, you know, any any kind of any area where they're finished and fixture rich. 00:42:14:16 - 00:42:43:05 Speaker 2 So what we call it so kitchens, bathrooms, those are you know, that's why those remodels in particular are more expensive than just a bedroom. Mean building and construction versus like, interior decoration and like, because you can furnish bedrooms. Yeah. Anyway, furniture can get really expensive. But back to, back to the, the the hard, you can't take it with you two kinds of surfaces. 00:42:43:07 - 00:43:11:06 Speaker 2 So, you know, tile can be $5 a square foot, it can be $50 a square foot. And how many square feet you need. So, you know, can we use the special tile in a small area that has a similar impact that gets you, you know what you want without breaking your bank, you know? So talking through the design and how we implement those special pieces is helpful. 00:43:11:08 - 00:43:15:13 Speaker 2 Getting what they are wanting and staying within the budget. 00:43:15:15 - 00:43:33:21 Speaker 1 When you're planning that stuff in the beginning, it's it's way easier because again, if you find out at the end that they wanted some special tile or some special thing at the end, the budget can get blown up later on. So if you're aware of that from the beginning or if you're if you're helping make the decisions from the beginning, it's a lot more successful. 00:43:33:23 - 00:44:04:10 Speaker 1 But I mean, I, I find that the selections aren't the biggest cost driver most of the time in the projects. I mean, five versus $20 a square foot tile on maybe 100ft² of tile is not going to make that much of a difference. But including like, like in a bathroom, since we're kind of talking about bathrooms, including a freestanding tub versus just a shower, or those are kind of the bigger items because we're cutting out plumbing labor, we're cutting out a whole fixture. 00:44:04:10 - 00:44:16:21 Speaker 1 We're cutting out square footage, probably. So. Right. Making those kind of larger decisions early on have more of an effect than maybe just what kind of countertops you're getting or what kind of tile they're getting. 00:44:16:21 - 00:44:34:17 Speaker 2 Right? Absolutely, absolutely. And all of those little things add up to bigger things, but it's also the pieces that you don't see. So in a remodel in particular, you know. Oh yeah, we want to completely gut it where it's got old knob and tube. If we're doing 100 year old, like, oh, it's got old knob and do what needs to be adjusted. 00:44:34:17 - 00:44:54:15 Speaker 2 So Kathleen is really wonderful at, you know, walking potential clients through like so here are the things that you may not be paying attention to, but that we help us understand the overall budget. You know, a new roof is this much or about. This new plumbing is going to be amount. This new wiring is going to be about this. 00:44:54:15 - 00:45:04:01 Speaker 2 A whole new Hvac is going to be about this. And when you're looking at an overall budget and all of a sudden a third or two thirds is taken up, then it's like, whoa, okay. 00:45:04:06 - 00:45:28:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, that's a rethink. Like we want to, you know, set people up for success down the road. So they're taking care of these things that often come up like we do a lot of 1950, 1950s ranches and all the underground plumbing is on its way out. So if it hasn't been replaced already, like, let's go ahead and replace that as part of the project because it's going to have to be done sooner or later. 00:45:28:04 - 00:45:34:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. And that could be that could be five, ten, 15, $20,000 line item depending on on what it is exactly. 00:45:34:08 - 00:45:46:14 Speaker 3 And so it's like, you know, we don't want you to to do this project. And then two years from now realize that you have an extra expense. So of, you know, taking care of it. Then because your toilet's no longer flushing. 00:45:46:14 - 00:46:04:00 Speaker 1 And some of those things, it's cheaper to do it at the same time. Like if, yeah, if my plumbers are already in there doing all the rest of the plumbing and everything is already demo'd, it's a lot easier to replace that underground plumbing, whereas if you do it later, you pretty much like after it's remodeled, you have to tunnel to get to it because you'd want to tear up. 00:46:04:01 - 00:46:10:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. What you just did. So now that's it could have been a $5,000 item on the health to $20,000 item because you waited. 00:46:11:00 - 00:46:34:04 Speaker 3 Yeah. And, you know, not to mention the disruption to your to your life. You know, do it when you have control over it. So, you know, thinking about the age of a roof or, you know, what's your foundation like? You know, that's, you know, more often, you know, an issue to consider that not because of, you know, our soil so bad. 00:46:34:06 - 00:46:54:08 Speaker 1 I think also, kind of drilling down, you know, because people have the budget, they tell you, and then they have their real budget. And, and sometimes that is a hard budget number, and sometimes it's just kind of what they're hoping to spend and they're not completely transparent with you. A lot of times, you know, we uncover that, early during the design process. 00:46:54:10 - 00:47:16:14 Speaker 1 But so you present them floor plan A and B and C, and you're like, well, A is you know, we feel confident this is in your budget. B and C are nice. But you know those are $50,000 more. Maybe they're. Oh yeah C definitely. Well they just spent another $50,000. Yeah. And you tell them hey. Well that's the more they're like I know but we can stretch the budget for that, you know. 00:47:16:15 - 00:47:24:10 Speaker 1 Then you can kind of get a sense of, yeah, this is they said their budget was X, but it's really probably more like X. You know. Yeah. 00:47:24:10 - 00:47:49:02 Speaker 3 I mean that actually I think happens quite a bit. And and I think one of the reasons why it happens is as we're designing people are rethinking their relationship with their house. And so they might be remodeling to stay there for another 5 to 10 years. But then when as we're working on the design it becomes a house that they can stay in for the next 20 years. 00:47:49:04 - 00:47:50:05 Speaker 2 Falling in love with their. 00:47:50:06 - 00:47:51:05 Speaker 3 House, I know. 00:47:51:08 - 00:47:53:17 Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, look at the things that we can do. 00:47:53:18 - 00:48:03:15 Speaker 3 Like we've actually have had very, very few of our projects have been sold. And so, you know, and so Suzanne and I have been working together for like 15 years now. 00:48:03:15 - 00:48:11:20 Speaker 2 And one of them that was sold, the new clients, came back and said, hey, you did this. Can we have you do this other thing? And I said, yeah, yeah. 00:48:11:22 - 00:48:34:05 Speaker 3 So, yeah, we have a lot of repeat clients. So, you know, just the fact that very few of our projects have sold is just, you know, people are okay to invest more if they realize they're going to stay longer. And that's part of the design process. And every design process is different and every client is different. 00:48:34:06 - 00:49:06:22 Speaker 3 You. The safe approach is to never assume that you know what their budget is, but just kind of like get a range and start working towards that. There's so many variables, you know, it's the selections. It's who the builder ends up being. You know, builders have different costs or trades have different costs. There could be a change in the market that drives up cost between design and construction. 00:49:07:00 - 00:49:27:07 Speaker 3 It's very hard to predict exactly what the cost is going to be, but it's kind of like, you know, we're a big ship, we're leaving New York. We know we're going to leave some. We're going to land somewhere, you know, in Europe, somewhere we're but we're going to start the trip, right? We're going to get started and see where things, things go. 00:49:27:08 - 00:49:53:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. And this was not a question that we talked about ahead of time at all. So I'm going to put you on the spot. How do you help clients navigate kind of the the variety in in contractor pricing because, that's one thing I come across a lot, as a builder, that they have a notion of whether it came from themselves or from their architect and a designer of what the project should cost. 00:49:53:04 - 00:50:14:03 Speaker 1 And then they start getting pricing from builders and they're like, well, I mean, this, this one, guys tell me it's 500. This one guys tell me it's 700. You know, this other guy somewhere in the middle, you know, how is, as a as a design firm, do you guys help people navigate that, that range of stuff that they're getting on you on your on your design that hasn't changed. 00:50:14:06 - 00:50:14:23 Speaker 1 Right? 00:50:15:01 - 00:50:29:13 Speaker 3 Right. Well, I think the first thing is if it's too good to be true, it probably is. So, you know, somebody is giving you a really low number that's just a signal to be very careful and ask a lot of questions. 00:50:29:18 - 00:50:48:09 Speaker 2 Did they miss something? Right. You know, we always have the builders if we're in a bid situation, even if we're not, you know, the builders and the clients will share the bids with us so that we can see. And there's another pair of eyes that, that are, that are more trained and going through those, to help them navigate. 00:50:48:15 - 00:51:10:11 Speaker 2 But it's also like a business models, you know, there's the guy in the back of his truck that that's his office, right? He's got no overhead because he works from home. Right. And then there's, you know, builders who have supervisors and, you know, it's a larger company. So their business model is very different, and that can drive the cost as well. 00:51:10:14 - 00:51:11:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:51:11:09 - 00:51:51:03 Speaker 3 And, you know, the talent behind the labor is, you know, we've got, you know, one framer that we've been working with for, you know, over 20 years. And this, you know, the same crew is going to charge and you're going to much more and you're going to get, you know, much better framing job than, you know, somebody else that maybe doesn't have as much experience or is not, you know, so, you know, quality driven and their process. 00:51:51:05 - 00:52:19:00 Speaker 3 So their numbers might be, you know, one might be 10,000, another one might be 20,000, but you're going to get what you pay for. Yeah. And so it's it's really important to try to get a handle on what the client's expectations are and how that relates to cost. So if you're saying you want A+ quality, but you're looking for a B price, that's just not going to work. 00:52:19:01 - 00:52:19:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:52:20:00 - 00:52:45:11 Speaker 3 So, and people don't aren't always aware of their own expectations. So we have to try to ask questions. This is does this look okay to you? Right. How about this. Would you be okay if you saw this at the end of your project? You know, so that kind of goes back to the window selection. That helps us to understand, right? 00:52:45:13 - 00:53:00:15 Speaker 3 You know, what their expectations are. And you know, we we use a car analogy a lot like, you know, are you okay driving a Kia or do you really want to be driving around in a Mercedes? Yeah. 00:53:00:16 - 00:53:34:06 Speaker 2 So we also we have, some tools that we provide to owners who are looking to bid or, you know, interview questions, suggestions or, you know, what to look at when you visit a construction site. You know, some construction sites get really, really messy. You know, some are, you know, just tidy because that's who the builder is. If that's really important to you, you know, you may see that in the cost and that may be and why you choose one builder over another. 00:53:34:06 - 00:53:54:18 Speaker 2 And the personalities are also a big deal, you know, definitely interviewing and meeting, meeting the builder, seeing his work and his trades work. Rain, you know, is this tile guy going to be the tile guy that you're going to beat on my project? Right. I want this tile guy because this looks awesome. You know? 00:53:54:20 - 00:54:12:10 Speaker 1 So my my, my, my uncle who I used to work with a lot, used the car analogy all the time. He he was a contractor. He he's you kind of got me into this. And, he you've been doing it for a long time. He always used, Well, do you want to, like an old 88 or a Cutlass Supreme? 00:54:12:10 - 00:54:27:12 Speaker 1 I'm like. I'm like, you have to start using some some. And he was using. He was using those same car brands. Even like 2005. I was like, all right, nobody drives those cars anymore. They don't make those anymore. Let's modernize. Is are. 00:54:27:14 - 00:54:28:11 Speaker 2 You know, you're losing people. 00:54:28:12 - 00:54:37:14 Speaker 1 Let's use like Honda Accord versus, you know, Lexus here, you know. Right. And is that. No, no. Is that a Cutlass Supreme is anymore I know. 00:54:37:14 - 00:54:54:22 Speaker 3 And even, you know, it's like the experience of those two cars. Like you can kind of imagine like going car shopping and getting and one and it feels one way and you get into a really, you know, like a high end, nice luxury car. And it feels a certain way. And if somebody asks you to describe, well, what's the difference? 00:54:54:22 - 00:55:24:07 Speaker 3 What made it feel different? It's really hard to put words to that. And so, you know, I think the, our industry term is fit and finish. Yes. And it's really hard for, kind of a layperson, a regular, everyday person, to understand what fit and finish is in the construction world. But that's what gives you that kind of intangible sense of one thing being better than the other. 00:55:24:09 - 00:55:46:06 Speaker 1 And sometimes it's the the choice of materials and how a jury's those materials feel, which is something that you can't capture in a picture necessarily. Right? Like if, you know, you could put a picture of a a brand new Honda Accord next to a picture of maybe a Mercedes in the interior. Photos on both of them look really nice, right? 00:55:46:07 - 00:55:52:11 Speaker 1 But if you go sit on them and you feel the material, that's that, that's that, that's what makes the difference. Yeah. That's right. 00:55:52:16 - 00:56:12:15 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, this everything, it's the sound of how the door closes. It's the way the steering wheel feels. It's the, you know, touch and feel of the, the knobs. So that could relate to, you know, like, you know what quality kitchen faucet you have. Yeah. It's those sensory things. 00:56:12:18 - 00:56:33:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. And so you know so tile and countertops and surfaces definitely play a big role in that. But you know cabinetry and millwork is it is is a real big thing like so so people are very happy kind of having what maybe what they currently have in an older home, which is a paint grade plywood you feel, you know, job built cabin where. 00:56:33:13 - 00:56:51:07 Speaker 1 But there's a big difference between that and a, CNC produced factory cabinet with UV cured finish and soft closing hardware. You know, from a distance, standing back there, both cabinets, they both look nice, but it's the experience of operating at that that can make the difference, right? 00:56:51:07 - 00:56:53:01 Speaker 3 Absolutely. Yeah. 00:56:53:03 - 00:57:13:00 Speaker 1 Last, last topic before we wrap it up. And this is something that I kind of used to ask in our first few episodes. I used to ask people a lot, and I'm going to start bringing it back a little bit because I like to hear the answers. Because, you know, this this podcast is supposed to be geared toward, toward homeowners and helping them make good decisions. 00:57:13:02 - 00:57:33:21 Speaker 1 So I always like to ask, as architects, designers, what is your ideal client? What is what what do you look for in a homeowner? Because we want people to also be good clients. Right. So but what what do makes a good client? Besides paying their bills on time and having, 00:57:33:23 - 00:57:34:12 Speaker 3 00:57:34:14 - 00:57:52:04 Speaker 2 An A and an understanding and an appreciation for what it is that we do, there's a reason why we're professionals and we've been in the industry and we have successful, you know, successful projects. You know, it's they value what we do. 00:57:52:06 - 00:58:13:01 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know, we're hoping for clients who are really engaged in the process. Because I think that, you know, what we have to offer is a lot of collaboration and really getting to know people. And so having clients that are really engaged with us as well. 00:58:13:03 - 00:58:14:20 Speaker 2 We like clients who do their homework. 00:58:15:00 - 00:58:40:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know, it's a it's a two way street, right. So, you know, we're going to ask questions. You know, they're going to answer questions, they're going to challenge us and we're going to respond to those challenges. So we want that healthy back and forth. That's and that's what creates, you know, successful but dynamic and also creative project where it's creative problem solving. 00:58:40:19 - 00:59:05:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. When I look back on on an unsuccessful design projects that we've been involved with on different levels over the past few years, oftentimes the clients who were the least involved or at least engaged in the process are the ones that kind of fell apart or never went anywhere. So, you know, with our clients, it would just kind of show up for meetings, all that stuff. 00:59:05:07 - 00:59:26:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's good. Or maybe one, maybe one half of the couples are very engaged, and the other one really wasn't engaged when it came down to the end to get final, you know, finalize the design, finalize the budget, start construction. Right. Yeah. We're just not going to do this. You know, it just kind of fell apart. Yeah. And it's just because the clients they were never really engaged in the process. 00:59:26:11 - 00:59:39:00 Speaker 1 They never really listened to what we were saying. They were just kind of checking the box. Right. So having that, having the collaboration with the client and, and having them really a part of the process is super important. 00:59:39:00 - 01:00:10:13 Speaker 2 And yeah, Kathleen said, you know, having them as challenges, we're we're we attract a lot of questioners, you know, folks that, you know, really, really dive in and are wanting to know more and wanting to learn more. So, you know, we're pretty detail oriented. So that makes us a really good fits for for anyone who is wanting an engaged, process, like a collaborative process. 01:00:10:15 - 01:00:10:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. 01:00:10:21 - 01:00:12:06 Speaker 2 You know, some go ahead. 01:00:12:10 - 01:00:36:23 Speaker 3 Yeah. We want to hear people ask, well, why are we doing it this way? Or how could we do this differently? Or we thought about this over the weekend and can we look at that one other way? You know, those those are the kind of clients, well, if you ask for more, you will get more. And for us, those are the best projects. 01:00:37:01 - 01:00:49:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for being here today. I really appreciate it's always great to see you. Tell us real quick for for our listeners, your website, your contact information, how they can reach out to you and how they can see your work so well. 01:00:49:17 - 01:00:56:14 Speaker 3 You can go to our website UW dot rda rc.com. 01:00:56:16 - 01:00:59:18 Speaker 1 You guys get stuff out there on social media. You all do. 01:00:59:18 - 01:01:01:12 Speaker 2 Not as much as we should. 01:01:01:14 - 01:01:02:23 Speaker 1 Instagram, Facebook. 01:01:03:00 - 01:01:05:03 Speaker 2 It's too busy designing. You. 01:01:05:05 - 01:01:25:22 Speaker 3 We are so focused on our day to day relationship with our clients that we tend to, answer those emails and take those phone calls and make those site visits during construction. Right? That's where we spend our time, not so much on social media. So you guys, but you can find us. 01:01:25:23 - 01:01:31:23 Speaker 2 We do have. Yeah, we do have a Facebook where we are on Facebook and and yeah, we are out there. 01:01:32:01 - 01:01:41:19 Speaker 3 But we'd rather see you face to face. So if you're interested in, you know, talking about doing something to your house, let us know. We'll come visit you. 01:01:42:01 - 01:01:44:19 Speaker 1 Yep. Grab a coffee with them and yeah. And get to know them. 01:01:44:22 - 01:01:51:00 Speaker 3 Well, we want to get to know your house too. So let us visit you at your house and we'll walk, walk through and see what we can do. 01:01:51:02 - 01:01:53:00 Speaker 1 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. 01:01:53:01 - 01:01:54:02 Speaker 2 Thank you for having us. 01:01:54:02 - 01:02:03:22 Speaker 1 And thank you all for listening to this episode of the project Shepherd podcast. We will see you next time. 01:02:04:00 - 01:02:28:03 Speaker 1 If you found this helpful, enjoy listening. Please support us by liking and subscribing here on your podcast platform, and also join us on our YouTube channel. We want to continue to bring you high quality content and expert guests, and your support truly helps us to continue this journey. If you have any questions for me or my guests or any feedback for us, you can email us at podcast at your project shepherd.com. 01:02:28:05 - 01:02:28:22 Speaker 1 Thanks again.